Anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of a second referendum, given the first?

[MuseumofInnocence]

Apologies, as I'm sure this has been done elsewhere.

I've been thinking a lot about the role of parliamentary sovereignty and how it differs from direct democracy. I was listening to Michael Heseltine again who gave a great speech at the March yesterday. He talks a lot about Parliament and how it is the foundations of our freedom, MPs do a great job, commit great service and so on. And then he concludes that "we the people, must be given the final say". I am a remainer and therefore sympathetic to this view, but given how the first went, and the argument for representative democracy, am I being a bit intellectually dishonest if I go down this road? If MPs were able to fulfil their duty, they would see that Brexit was not in the interests of the UK, and revoke Article 50?

[Aurea]

The issue with the original referendum is that the propaganda campaigns were built on wild suppositions and distortions. Now I know more, I would vote differently.

[PizzaCafe2016]

I think if you will investigate it, that E Europeans sending back child benefit to their own countries is one of those Daily Mail lies. The first waves of immigrants tend to be young single people

Take a look

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8052738/Row-over-child-benefit-for-East-Europeans.html

[Mistigri]

Setting a question for a 2nd referendum would be a sticking point

Whatever the question is, it will need to be sufficiently specific that any result is capable of rapid implementation within the life of this parliament. That means that realistically it can only be between some combination of remain, May's deal and no deal because there are no other deals on offer.

The problem is that even May's deal is not really a deal; it's a "blind" Brexit that leaves the question of the end Brexit point to be decided by the next parliament or the one after that.

[BelleSausage]

Again, that is a loophole that should be closed by some other method. Simply pulling the parachute and leaving is an overreaction.

[smallereveryday]

Why is it the leavers who shout about democracy being at risk ? Democracy is a constantly changing . Based on the current and prevailing situation.

General elections DEMOCRATICALLY elect our governments. Over our parliamentary history - we have had numerous occasions where another election has been had less than 2 yrs later where a different outcome has occurred. Because the situation changed.

Democracy means control of an organization or group by the majority of its members. Why is it MORE democratic to 'honour' a vote from 2 yrs ago - rather than today ?

If leavers are really all about Democracy then why aren't they clamouring for a second vote ?
The answers can ONLY be , they KNOW the outcome will be reversed. That a reversed vote will then be as legitimately democratic as the vote from 2 yrs ago - this taking away the great rallying call of 'an affront to democracy' not to honour the last vote.
The situation is either currently democratic of its not. The answer is out there amongst the electorate.

My analogy of this situation is this.
David Cameron asked the electorate if they were hungry.
He offered pie.
He couldn't say WHAT was in the pie.
Most were a bit peckish and voted for pie.
A large minority weren't hungry.
It now transpires that is a veal pie.
A very few are delighted, it's their favourite pie.
Some will still eat it because they are hungry.
Most have lost their appetite now they know the contents.

[PizzaCafe2016]

any result is capable of rapid implementation within the life of this parliament

I don't think there is any leave option that would be capable of rapid implementation. Current parliament has 3 years more before the next general election is due. Current parliament has had two years since article 50 was initiated, but look at the end result - an extension without any clear plan what happens next.

[Mistigri]

I don't think there is any leave option that would be capable of rapid implementation.

Then you have a problem, because this parliament ends at the latest in 2022 and no Parliament can bind another.

May's deal could be implemented rapidly, in that the U.K. would leave the EU (which is non reversible) albeit with the end Brexit point likely to be determined by another parliament, possibly a Labour one.

No deal could be done very quickly, but very messily, with at least a decade of picking up the pieces afterwards.

Take your pick. It's that or no Brexit.

[NataliaOsipova]

My analogy of this situation is this.
David Cameron asked the electorate if they were hungry.
He offered pie.
He couldn't say WHAT was in the pie.
Most were a bit peckish and voted for pie.
A large minority weren't hungry.
It now transpires that is a veal pie.
A very few are delighted, it's their favourite pie.
Some will still eat it because they are hungry.
Most have lost their appetite now they know the contents.

Like that! I think of it like selling your house. The agent tells you the market is hot and you’ll get a great price if you sell with them. You’re thinking £1 million. You put it on the market and the only offer you get is for £15,000. Do you still want to sell now you know what you’ll actually be getting....?

(There’s also a very amusing one I’ve seen on Twitter about a blow job and a piranha. You get the idea!)

[NotSureThisIsWhatIWant]

I would like the questions in a referendum to be:

TM deal or revoke Article 50.

All the other scenarios are just one sided aspirations, we need to stop forgetting that there are another 27 countries with a say on what we want and that they are free to say no.

TM is the best the government has been able to get (through their actions or lack of), I can’t see why we insist we could get a better deal when the UK has burnt so many bridges, in fact, I don’t even know how we are aspiring to a particularly good trade deal given our behaviour.

[smallereveryday]

NataliaOsipova
I think if you will investigate it, that E Europeans sending back child benefit to their own countries is one of those Daily Mail lies. The first waves of immigrants tend to be young single people.

As much as I hate the DM . I am afraid this is actually true. I know because it has formed part of a large scale investigation that I lead. Sadly the ONLY legitimate part of the scam was the sending of child benefit to a Eastern European country where the children still resided.

[PizzaCafe2016]

TM deal or revoke Article 50

To some that is being asked to choose between Remain and Remain.

[NataliaOsipova]

They’re not “flocking here for child benefit” though. People misunderstand what freedom of movement means; it’s freedom of movement to work. So, yes, if you have a child resident in another EU country and you are working and paying taxes in this country, then you will be entitled to that benefit. That’s a very different thing.....

[1tisILeClerc]

{Ask the average person on the street about the withdrawal agreement and it's impacts and the overwhelming majority could not articulate it even slightly, so asking us to vote on whether it's a good idea or not is simply ludicrous.}

This. The waters have been poisoned by lies told principally by the ERG and followers, and even now only a relative few appreciate that the WA proposed by Mrs May is NOT a 'deal' but a routemap towards a comprehensive deal, which AFTER signing can be negotiated.

Immigration: Germany has taken in hundreds of thousands and rather than moaning, has found/created work which has boosted the German economy. There have obviously been problems as the numbers are huge.
So a few immigrants might have come to the UK 'signed on' and presumably paying for food and lodging in the UK and then sending some of the remaining amount back to Romania or wherever. This is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

The UK home secretary rushing home from a Christmas break because a few Syrians/Iraquis made a journey over the channel in a rubber boat because they would prefer not to be blown up in their own towns. Pathetic and headline grabbing.

[NataliaOsipova]

....I expressed that badly - freedom of movement of labour would have been a better way to put it.

[1tisILeClerc]

{TM deal or revoke Article 50
To some that is being asked to choose between Remain and Remain.}

Only if you are incapable of thinking.
We are constantly reminded that Leavers are not stupid and researched all the issues. You would think that if this is the case that they might have managed to work out that the WA, the WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT means the UK is leaving.

[JustAnotherPoster00]

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

The petition currently stands at 5.3M although the petition in itself wont change anything but it at least tells the government that this Brexit isnt in your name so if you havent already signed it I encourage and urge you to do so please

[noraclavicle]

No I’m not particularly. Yes, we did have a (second) referendum already, but we also have a parliamentary democracy and to date the numbers just aren’t there to get May’s deal through, or possibly any. Is there another way to break the deadlock?

[PizzaCafe2016]

Sadly the ONLY legitimate part of the scam was the sending of child benefit to a Eastern European country where the children still resided

I experienced it first hand as a landlord. Two EE families were living in the same house. I challenged the letting agent whether or not that was safe as there were 4 adults and 5 children. Too many for a 3 bedroom house I thought considering the 3rd bedroom was only small.

Next door neighbour told me that the 5 children were only in the UK for a few weeks and were not seen again. Then the penny dropped. They had brought the children to the UK to register them for child benefit. As soon as it was approved the children were sent back to their home country.

One of the parents arrogantly bragged to the next door neighbour how much they had scammed from the UK government. I served them their two month's notice and sent them packing. Sadly the letting agent who was fully aware of what they were doing arranged alternative accommodation. So much for patriotism by the letting agent!

[Millyonthe]

Immigration: Germany has taken in hundreds of thousands and rather than moaning, has found/created work which has boosted the German economy. There have obviously been problems as the numbers are huge.
So a few immigrants might have come to the UK 'signed on' and presumably paying for food and lodging in the UK and then sending some of the remaining amount back to Romania or wherever. This is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

LeClerc. I think you have summed up the difference between the EU and the UK very well. The EU decides, quite rightly in your view, that they can ignore local, regional concerns about sudden mass immigration - however justified - because it is good for economic growth and insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

You think that's okay and I respect your view. But I think it's very dangerous. You cannot ignore people's legitimate concerns about their own security. If you do, they will turn to the far right.

[PizzaCafe2016]

then you will be entitled to that benefit. That’s a very different thing.....

The scam that money sent back to Eastern European countries it goes a lot further than someone who is trying to look after children in the UK.

[Mistigri]

Pizza you're spouting rubbish. It's perfectly legal to claim child benefit for children living abroad - you claim where you work not where the children reside. So your landlord story is a blatant fib.

[Peregrina]

So the Taxpayers Alliance jibs at £23 million going to children overseas,
from parents working here. Although you note it is a reciprocal benefit. Basically, they are another mardy greedy selfish group, like the ERG who want Brexit so that they can make more money.

[1tisILeClerc]

Millyonthe
I said Germany, not the EU.
Germany, being a sovereign nation can make its own laws, just as the UK can.
The relevance is the 'can do' attitude of the Germans, not the 'Fuck you' attitude of too many in the UK government.

[Tolleshunt]

I'm not seeing the problem about child benefit, if the parents are working and paying tax here. It actually saves us money if the children reside in the home country, as we are saved the cost of schooling, doctors etc.

[1tisILeClerc]

PizzaCafe2016
So you are taking legitimate child benefit activity, and (probably) illegal activity of a letting agent as support for leaving the EU?