Anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of a second referendum, given the first?

[MuseumofInnocence]

Apologies, as I'm sure this has been done elsewhere.

I've been thinking a lot about the role of parliamentary sovereignty and how it differs from direct democracy. I was listening to Michael Heseltine again who gave a great speech at the March yesterday. He talks a lot about Parliament and how it is the foundations of our freedom, MPs do a great job, commit great service and so on. And then he concludes that "we the people, must be given the final say". I am a remainer and therefore sympathetic to this view, but given how the first went, and the argument for representative democracy, am I being a bit intellectually dishonest if I go down this road? If MPs were able to fulfil their duty, they would see that Brexit was not in the interests of the UK, and revoke Article 50?

[PizzaCafe2016]

38% not 52% I guess because not everyone voted. It’s pertinent as it would be unusual for the none-voters to be as strongly leave as the voters

Speculation. How can anyone know with certainty that those who chose not to vote would have voted remain?

[Acis]

Given the fraud with which the first referendum was riddled, I don't feel in the least uncomfortable with another - provided that there are much better safeguards.

[BelleSausage]

The choice should be Deal (which one who knows) or Revoke.

Take the word Remain out entirely. No Deal should not be an option. It’s completely mental.

[HotpotLawyer]

Farage himself said, before the referendum and expecting to lose “a result of 52 48 % would mean unfinished business “

I do agree that another referendum would be divisive, (I marched, in the same sport that many voters voted Leave; to send a message of no confidence to our government).

It is shocking that a vote to Leave was allowed to be run in tne way it was, for Vote Leave to have been found to be breaking the law but there to have been no consequences (and little publicity on that).

I think tne gvt should take leadership control, do what they actually seem to want to do, and Revoke.

[MIdgebabe]

We can’t be certain in any particular case, it’s based on known psychological facts. That mean that people usually accept 60% to change as fair.

From memory, this was questioned when we ran the 2016 referendum but possibly because it was none binding, it was considered not necessary to state.

[Bluntness100]

I'm uncomfortable with a second referendum, but for different reasons. I think we should never have been asked in thr first place as it's too complex a subject for the British population to make an informed decision on, and I think asking again will simply compound the error.

You only have to read the threads on here to see how many people simply don't understand it, have erroneous information, and think one thing when factually it's another.

As such, I think asking the people again is a bad idea. The MPs need to do their jobs here properly, they need to understand the impacts and do what's right for the country, not for themselves, their parties, or play politics, but the sad truth is they are not doing that. And because of their poor performance we are now faced with the possibility the public may be asked again to vote on a subject they simply don't understand.

Ask the average person on the street about the with drawal agreement and it's impacts and the overwhelming majority could not articulate it even slightly, so asking us to vote on whether it's a good idea or not is simply ludicrous.

[BelleSausage]

It was non binding because Cameron didn’t think he would lose.

But he discounted Jeremy Corbyn’s half hearted campaigning for Remain in poor Labour areas. If Labour had been clearer about a support for Remain it would have been less like two fingers to a detested Tory government.

Conservatives and Labour both make me sick. Cameron, May and Corbyn are now equally responsible for this mess and need to be barred from U.K. politics for life.

[MIdgebabe]

I am not sure what poll could be run and how it could be run to get out of the mess but so far we have from the politicians

No Irish Sea border ( and no Irish border) agreed
No deal ruled out
Remain ruled out
Mays deal ruled out

They have nothing that looks likely to be ruled in so clearly they need some kind of help!

And part of the problem is that leave meant different things to different people. And some of what leavers thought they will get form leave such as lower rates of immigration seems unlikely to be realised.

[PizzaCafe2016]

No Deal should not be an option. It’s completely mental

Some think not. JRM in particular is a supporter of no deal as are other MP's.

I think UK would experience more disruption than the other members of the EU in the short term if no deal was the outcome, but I can't convince myself that the UK will disappear off the World map and 67 Million people will starve to death within a few months.

[BelleSausage]

@PizzaCafe2016

It’s not about disappearing off the world map. It’s about the painful consequences for the most vulnerable in society immediately and lasting some time. JRM is pretty clear that is what he expects and he doesn’t care. He admits it might take decades to recover from No Deal. But his assets are all off shore now. So he isn’t bothered.

JRM, NF and BJ are all pushing for No Deal so they can take advantage of the aftermath. All of them are pretty honest about it being a disaster for the average person. They just don’t see themselves being caught up in it.

[Peregrina]

Can that logic not be applied to the 1975 referendum when UK first joined the EU?

The UK had already joined - Wilson had the same problem of a split in his party as the Tories now have, so pulled the Referendum idea out of the bag - but he was considerably more canny than Cameron or May will ever be, so got the result he wanted.

Were the voters told that EU would be expanded to 28 Countries half of which make up only 5% of the total EU GDP?

Who predicted that Communism would collapse in the spectacular way that it did? (By the same token who predicted that a man like Trump could become a US president.?)

Were the voters told that Merkel and Blair would open the floodgates for immigration?

Merkel opened up her country to refugees, which is not the same. Blair could have chosen to restrict E European immigration, as Merkel did, but chose not to.

[BelleSausage]

I feel like you are one of the people who need to feel the consequences of your actions before you get how wrong it is. It is just a shame that other people need to be hurt too.

When No Deal proponents say that it will be worth it I often wonder how much they are willing to sacrifice and what it is that they will be gaining that is worth the price.

[Hiddenaspie1973]

I wonder what the split was when U.K had the option of opting INTO the U.K and whether it was as shambolic as this is?

[Hiddenaspie1973]

Opting into the E.U.....not the U.K

[PizzaCafe2016]

Blair could have chosen to restrict E European immigration, as Merkel did, but chose not to

So what was Blair's motive for allowing E European immigration?

[Peregrina]

General election was 8 June 2017, 71 days after Article 50 was invoked on 29 March 2017. So people knew what they were voting for in 2017.

Before she called the election May was already going on for a full on Hard Brexit, from a position of having a small but working majority. She has lost that majority now, and governs by grace of the DUP, which unless you are in NI, no one can vote for. So yes, people knew what they were voting for and said, 'No thanks' to May's (ERG's) idea of Brexit.

[PizzaCafe2016]

I wonder what the split was when U.K had the option of opting INTO the U.K and whether it was as shambolic as this is?

1975 EU referendum result was:

67% for the EU
33% against the EU

Turnout was 64%

So 43% of the eligible voters were for the EU. Higher than the 2016 referendum in which 37.% of eligible voters voted to leave.

[NataliaOsipova]

I can't convince myself that the UK will disappear off the World map and 67 Million people will starve to death within a few months.

It won’t and they won’t. But what is likely to happen is a significant recession in a year. The UK is dependent on services (and particularly financial services); it has very little manufacturing industry left. The boom in financial services has been driven partly by London being seen as the gateway to European markets; if London is no longer in the EU, a lot of that investment will go elsewhere. A lot of jobs (and a lot of jobs that depend on those high paying jobs, from legal services to nannies and cleaners) will also be lost. There will be a significant diminution in tax revenues, which will necessitate cuts in public services. At the same time, the value of the £ will fall. As we import more than we export, goods in the shops will cost more and inflation is likely to rise. From a non sterling perspective, however, things will look cheaper....so it’s entirely possible that foreign interests speculatively scoop up UK property and assets.

Worst case? We will become like Poland and Romania in a generation; our kids will eschew professional jobs here in favour of being a builder or a nanny in Germany because the pay will be so much greater in Sterling terms. That’s what happens when one currency rapidly appreciates relative to that of its near neighbour. That’s why all the people from poorer EU countries wanted to come and work here in the first place. We will have shot ourselves in the foot.

[Peregrina]

Blair severely underestimated the numbers who would want to come. Personally I don't doubt that if the other EU countries hadn't exercised their right to not allow unrestricted immigration from the old E bloc that many would have preferred to go to Germany.

I wonder what the split was when U.K had the option of opting INTO the U.K and whether it was as shambolic as this is?

Already answered - we were already in, but Wilson was much smarter (craftier) than May or Cameron, and the vote was something like 60% confirmation from memory, and there was nothing shambolic about it - we carried on as we had done the day before. I assume it shut up the doubters in Wilson's party.

[PizzaCafe2016]

That’s what happens when one currency rapidly appreciates relative to that of its near neighbour. That’s why all the people from poorer EU countries wanted to come and work here in the first place

Exactly. All Blair's and Labour's fault when they were last in power. Eastern Europeans flocking to UK for child benefit that was sent back to their home countries. How was that meant to benefit the UK?

[Peregrina]

I think if you will investigate it, that E Europeans sending back child benefit to their own countries is one of those Daily Mail lies. The first waves of immigrants tend to be young single people.

[NataliaOsipova]

JRM in particular is a supporter of no deal as are other MP's.

While I profoundly disagree with JRM’s positions on almost all matters, I have respect for the way he consistently and courteously expresses his views. People demonise him without actually understanding what those views are and what he stands for. Put simply, he is an economic libertarian; he believes in free markets. While I’d call it extremist, it’s a perfectly rational point of view...just not one which would ever be electable if written up in a manifesto! The British are inherently centrist, probably with a slight right wing bias. Things can swing; Thatcher was more right wing and Blair was a left-leaning centrist. But I cannot imagine a situation where there would be mass support for the JRM agenda.....

[NataliaOsipova]

I think if you will investigate it, that E Europeans sending back child benefit to their own countries is one of those Daily Mail lies. The first waves of immigrants tend to be young single people.

Absolutely so.

[Everytimeref]

I don't know what the answer is. A second referendum doesn't sit well as the issue with what question is asked is too complex. The other way out is a general election but we would get a Tory government as it's been shown that Tories always vote, whilst floating and Labour et al less likely as many will be disillusioned by what's happened. Another 4 yrs of a Tory government would as disastrous.

[BelleSausage]

@PizzaCafe2016

You’ve missed the point (on purpose or by accident).

We will be in the same position as the Eastern Europeans. All because we were so busy finger pointing at them to excuse our economic downturn that we didn’t bother to find a simpler way to fix things then pulling the cord on our EU membership.

Essentially, someone ate a slice of my cake so I am kicking everyone out of my house and never going out again. That’ll show the bastards. Laughable.

It’s actually so stupid that it deserves a Darwin Award.