Can we have a Brexit thread for posterity? No arguing ?

[Mookatron]

I'm thinking about when GCSE students or whatever it is by then are studying history. Can we do a thread that would be like a primary source for how normal people felt about Brexit? Not really the facts and not bitching at each other (though I often do that, I'm not being sanctimonious), just a record of how we ordinary mostly parents felt about living in what will surely become historical times.

I'll start. I'm 42 and I live in London but grew up in the North.
I feel that I don't want to leave the EU for many practical reasons but actually the main reason is my identity. I feel European and I want to be European. I see the EU as an imperfect organisation of countries who didn't want to go to war again.

I currently feel like all the decisions being made in parliament have absolutely nothing to do with me as a British Citizen and everything to do with a bunch of people who have lost sight of what it is just to be someone living in their home country. They keep saying things like, 'the people want' this or that - when the problem is actually that a consensus has not been reached.

Theresa May seems determined to push on to ensure a group of ex public schoolboys stay in charge. Jeremy Corbyn seems to want to push on because he's living in the past and is not listening to his party or the many young people who want to stay in Europe. It feels like a feud between two old rivals who are not seeing the destruction the feud they're having is wreaking on everyone else's real lives.

I'm finding myself watching the news through my fingers.

What are your feelings about our country at the moment?

Concerned at how our data is being used to manipulate us (targeted Facebook ads, suggested friends/groups in facebook, shopping/browsing habits data collection, click bait ads, SEOs, comments/likes/dislikes in social media) but not many people realise this.

I feel that we have some of the most self-serving politicians in history and they will be judged.

I feel that we are chopping a beach off a tree while sitting on said branch while saying that it will hurt the tree more than us.

I agree with you both. nutjob I know you are right but it is so, so easy to put that to the back of your mind on a daily level

I feel the the idea of patriotism has long gone. I’m sure there are always politicians who have been self-serving but what ever happened to sacrificing personal gain to act in the interests of the country? This will be a disaster.

I feel like a part of my identity is being forcibly removed from me and I’m very sad about the insular backwards step we have taken.

I feel the same, efferlunt, and very angry. But I know there's is anger on both sides.

The overwhelming feeling that I have is still anger. Anger with the politicians who created this mess, anger with the people who lied during the referendum campaign, anger with those who voted leave and anger with the politicians for failing to sort the situation out.

Alongside the anger, I also feel anxiety about the future and fear for what a no-deal Brexit could bring, both socially and economically. I'm worried about my job and about the jobs of the people who work in my team. There is deep concern about how it will impact on the next generation too, including my dd. And yes, a sense of loss and sadness about that bit of my identity which it feels like they're ripping away without my consent.

What I dislike most is the divisiveness. Tory party had a toxic disease they transmitted to entire country. I naively thought that the Referendum would settle things. After IndyRef the Scottish united. After Brexit Refn, the Brits are more divided than ever. Pah.

For some reason the brits like to vote in the Tory party.
I feel the years that they have been in power they are perhaps restrained by us being part of the EU.
I do not know what them being in government when we are not part of the EU will do to the working people.
JRM...........enough said

I think there is an overwhelming sense of disbelief on both sides of the argument that the other side can't see things the way they do. There is no common ground between the two opposing sides, and I think that for future generations this will be a real watershed period in British History, studied for centuries as they period that pivoted the country completely.

Without a doubt, it feels like a civil war fought through media, PR, subversive advertising and tactical, unethical political manoevres. Horrid and unstable times, whatever you voted for.

Here is a theory I have which may be totally wrong. The UK lost a great deal of empire post-WW2. It's cities having suffered massive damage from bombing as well as associated infrastructure left it in an impoverished state. The arrogance associated with the British and particularly the English was vastly reduced because of the post war poverty.

In all fairness, I read where unofficial U.S. government policy ( but still implemented ) was to try to keep the U.K. in an impoverished, semi-starved state because the U.S. feared a UK comeback and didn't want a competitor since the U.S. was now the head honcho.

By joining the EU the UK was able to make a comeback economically
and be on a relative par with other advanced economies. The economic power and might of the EU was a great gift to the people of the UK.

I read where in Japan they have like twenty different ways to say thank you to a gift and all them carry some form of resentment. To accept a gift from someone without some means to repay them does make you in a sense beholden to them, to make yourself their social inferior.

This is what separates business from charity and why people much prefer business to charity.

This might explain why there is so much hate for the EU. People, particularly men during the Great Depression who were helped greatly by FDR's social policies when they became self-sufficient and reclaimed their pride began to curse his name.

When you help out a neighbor in usually a small way there is an understanding that if you need help in some small way in the future you can call upon them for help and thus reciprocation. This then resembles business and a fair exchange and not pity.

I am not quite sure if it's resentment at perceived charity or the return of British arrogance or perhaps both that is driving so much of the hate for the EU and also for foreigners in general.

Economically, yes. Our prosperity has almost certainly been linked with EU trade. But I think you have misunderstood the general sentiment, and that prosperity has been the result of charity. It has been access to market and transport routes rather than charity (of which there has actually been none, we have been a net contributer for a very, very long time).

The deepening political integration is what sticks in most people's throats. Maastricht and ultimately Lisbon Treaty have massively overstepped the mark from trading block to what many see as the early tentacles of federalism. The deeper you go the further you have to climb out. So that final treaty was a real wake up call that this is only going one way and we need to make a decision NOW if we want to stay on the train or get off and continue on our own track.

I would say that might be why so many thought we could have an amicable trading relationship without the politics. Rather than having our cake and eating it, it was more a sense of, well, it's what we thought we were signed up to and well, it sort of suits everyone to trade with each other freely so why not?

On a positive note, the resulting doom of Brexit will produce a very resilient, and strong population who will be able to survive in the harsh conditions.

missb

I think perhaps it is the perception of charity rather than actual charity itself. Certainly helping a country get back on its feet even if it costs a large amount upfront will pay back in time as trade is reestablished and business is conducted.

I would hate to see the U.K. have to go begging back to the EU within a few weeks of leaving because leaving was not properly planned out.

I do hate some of the things the EU has done with regard to Greece. The problem was the euro was oversold as a currency and countries like Greece were encouraged to spend like there was no tomorrow. The EU should have keep a tighter reign on who would be allowed in.

The problem now is that trade is an extremely complicated issue and I really don't think the U.S. is out to sabotage the U.K. by being willing to trade in what we have to offer in terms of food or whatever. I also don't think India is trying to gouge the U.K by insisting on a certain amount of visas.

The U.K. either wants what the rest of the world has to offer or it doesn't. If it wants what the EU has in terms of standards for food and other items then maybe it should just stay in the EU, warts and all.

The EU may well just fall apart in five to ten years time and then all countries involved will have to experience economic hell for a while until things get sorted but at least it would not be self-inflicted misery.

Backgirl

No doubt. But only after the ill have died, the weaker minded have died, those dependent on certain medications have died and the rest of the population have suffered from great misery and pain.

More people live in cities than rural areas, the ability of the population to survive at some type of low-level will be greatly reduced from that of the Great Depression era when a majority had farming, fishing, and hunting skills.

I don't think people from around the world are laughing now but they probably will be in a few years time as the U.K. populace becomes threadbare with patched pants, shirts, worn-out shoes, emaciated bodies, etc. At some point pity will turn to mockery.

I don't know if you have ever been so broke that when you go into a store you see people buying things that you simply can't afford but would like to have. That hurts. I am afraid the U.K. may be in a similar position before too long.

I have found the whole thing quite fascinating, I have realised some of my weaker points when it comes to debating, in the early days I had a tendency to become quite emotional and reactive ( still happens if I add gin to the mix) when discussing the subject.
I think my critical thinking skills have probably improved and my understanding of confirmation bias.
I can accept when I am wrong about something, although I am quite often wrong in everyday life I have learnt to read around something and understand what is actual 'fact' and what is conjecture. Although a lot of life decisions stem from a combination of both, based on previous experience and potential outcomes.
I realise that we are all more similar than different.
My cutting and pasting skills are now second to none

All in all, interesting times to live in.

It has been access to market and transport routes rather than charity (of which there has actually been none, we have been a net contributer for a very, very long time).

I found some graphs that are quite interesting. UK is a net contributor, sure (though if you were to take out the costs of shared services, like trade negotiations, legal teams for optimal trade legislations, etc, I think the cost is still good value).

What many people in the UK seem to forget is that many other countries are also net contributors. If you look at the graph of net contribution per population, the UK is near the bottom of the net contributors.

If you look at it as a % of income, the UK is all the way at the bottom.

Here is the link: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start

I'm mostly just angry - about Brexit, about the destruction of what made Britain great, about the gaping chasm it has created in our society - and also about being completely disenfranchised both figuratively and literally.

I don’t ‘feel european’. I am not even sure what that means. I feel British. When the referendum was announced my heart wanted to vote leave. But I talked to people who knew more about economics and politics and I voted remain because on balance I though it was the right thing to do. I wasn’t that bothered by the result and I thought it would be ok. Now I know much more about for example the NI/ROI border issues I am glad I voted remain and I don’t want us to leave. However I understand why some people voted leave and I think that the way the whole country was lied to and mislead is appalling.

I’m foreign (originally not EU, though I have an EU country passport). I am battling to reconcile my day to day experience of life here (specifically in London) which is inclusive, cosmopolitan, outward-looking, with the rhetoric and actions around Brexit. And I’m shaking my head at how incompetent and lacking in courage so many of our elected leaders are.

I don't think people from around the world are laughing now but they probably will be in a few years time as the U.K. populace becomes threadbare with patched pants, shirts, worn-out shoes, emaciated bodies, etc. At some point pity will turn to mockery.

Hyperbole much?

Thanks for the posts. frumpety I love the fact you're enjoying all the chaos! A learning experience for all of us I think.

Mookatron I should probably add still haven't learnt to read the question before answering

I am not 'enjoying' the chaos at all, not a fan of chaos in the least, although if you popped in to my house you might disagree.

I don't particularly feel 'European' , I get excited by the fact that when I visit friends down South , their starlings are a different colour to ours up here, Europe feels positively exotic to someone like me who hasn't travelled widely.

But I like people a lot, I don't care where they came from, what colour they are, big or small, I like them and care about them. I voted Remain because I like people, we all have more similarities than differences. I do a job where I need to find a connection with people in less than 15 minutes, I can always find common ground, always

I voted the way I did because I looked at all those proposing Leave and came to the conclusion that they didn't like people in the same way I did, they didn't care, it was a bit of a game to them, a lark, a jape, a money spinner even. They were keen to point out the differences and not the similarities. And they are more than willing to blame their followers when it doesn't work out the way they promised. Which it won't, because they never had it in their power to fulfil any of the promises, another reason to vote Remain

DarienGap

If the worse that happens is that the British people start to look a bit too haggard after a few years before new trade deals start to kick in that would be just great ( no deaths, spreading of diseases, massive civil disorder, etc ).

This is such a radical move. There are no models, templates to follow, to my knowledge not a single country has tried to something like this.

Of course countries have recovered from civil wars but they usually required financing and technical assistance from outside sources in order to recover.

There should be a do after the " has tried to ".

Whatever happens I wish the UK the best.

Just posted this on the Westminstenders thread, but it sums up how I'm feeling at the moment about Brexit.

"Fuck's sake. I have never been so pessimistic about the future. I had to send a ranty email to BBC Berkshire's breakfast show this morning - they had John Redwood on, and allowed him to spout at least four bald faced lies. No challenge. None. We are never going to get out of this unholy mess until the home truths are spelt out and the lies are called out, repeatedly, unrelentingly.

I want to be planning my summer holiday, not holding fire because I'm anticipating fucking civil unrest, troops on the streets and empty supermarkets. I want to be spending my money on nice things, not sodding chest freezers and 25kg sodding bags of flour. I want to feel like we have someone in charge of the country that cares about the country, not someone who is driving us apparently remorselessly to economic armageddon. I want to know that I'll have a job in a year's time, not losing million pound deals to 'market uncertainty'. I want my Mum to be able to fight her cancer, not worrying that in seven weeks time her chemo drugs won't be able to get in the sodding country. FUCKERS."