Westministenders: BAH HUMBUG said Mr Rees-Mogg

[RedToothBrush]

"At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge Rees-Mogg, ... it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons hostels?"

"Plenty of prisons hostels..."

"And the Union workhouses foodbanks." demanded Scrooge Jacob. "Are they still in operation?"

"Both very busy, sir..."

"Those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge ^Rees-Mogg, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

He continued "Besides I do not believe that anyone would die without them. I think Theresa is right, there are many complex reasons why nurses go to food banks. The real reason for the rise in numbers is that people know that they are there and Labour deliberately didn't tell them. To have charitable support given by people voluntarily to support their fellow citizens I think is rather uplifting and shows what a good, compassionate country we are"

------------------------

This thread is dedicated to Mrs8 and anyone else who is working to make life just a little better in the difficult circumstances that ALL politicians are currently doing their best to ignore (despite what they profess).

No Deal = even more poverty and destitution.

MERRY CHRISTMAS & HERES HOPING FOR A HAPPIER NEW YEAR
especially to those of you, who might be having a tough time or facing real uncertainity.

queenie

queenie
Do you think the backers of the leave campaign care any more for the poor?
The plight of the poor in this country is bad, absolutely, I just don't see how brexit provides any kind of answer unless you're hoping for disaster socialism.

I think this is what you meant to write?

People who are vehemently for Brexit are spending energy to protect what they think is good for them. Many of them will not be affected by poverty or issues with human rights etc etc. Or at least, they feel they aren’t just at the moment and somehow feel above all those issues

If you think for one moment BJ, Farage and the tories in the ERG give a flying fuck about the poor, you are in for a rude awakening.

Despite the strong possibility that Brexit will accelerate something that I personally would like to happen - Scottish Independence - sooner rather than later, I would still rather that Brexit didn't happen because of its negative impact on the poorest and most vulnerable.

I'd rather be patient and that Scottish Independence took longer, without the pain of Brexit.

Mrsr8 - don't be silly. You're being self centred and doing it for your own self-gratification

J RM was going on about how cheap clothes and cheap possibly without good standards food would be great for people with less money. This would certainly happen post Brexit according to him. And if it didn't? He and the other charlatan wizards of Oz Brexit would look at their safe money and assets with a smug self-satisfaction.

People who don't want this exercise in national self harm to happen are not the ones who are to blame. Irrespective of their level of wealth. I really hope the blame is correctly assigned to those who caused it to happen. That they are the ones who should be asked to work out a plan. They owe already. Before attaching blame or asking what non brexiteers are doing, exhaust the perpetrators who couldn't give a fiddly dee about the consequences for anyone but themselves.

People having to leave the UK to keep their work (jobs that have to be based in an EU country) are taking with them their tax contributions and other direct debits which benefitted the UK. Without a doubt, there will be less going into the coffers. Some of these people gave quite a bit more that they took. Little things like National trust and English Heritage membership, for example, went into the economy.

I keep popping in to have a read then experience an existential crisis...

Yeah mrs you is so self centred.

The way you go round on threads inspiring us all to donate food. What a bitch.

JRM has never been to primark. Can C4 do a documentary on Jacob goes to Primark please?

Mrs8 someone has to nominate you for an honour.

Thus those you are well respected and have honours themselves are more likely to have their nominations taken seriously and they are more likely to know how to nominate someone

In theory someone from MN could nominate you.

On reflection, these type of cheap clothes have a cost. Exploitation and misery.

And food grown or reared with low standards. Both source and consumer lose out.

One could also wonder if those who advocate importing those types of food want to destroy the livelihood of farmers and manufacturers here. Of course Minford stated it was to be a casualty, but worth it. Good conditions costs.

born After WW1 in particular, the same ruling class remained, but many of the brightests & best of that class had been killed
So the UK - and other European - ruling classes in the 1930s were stupider than they might otherwise have been

After WW2, wc lads like my dad were allowed to become junior officers in the late 1940s and 1950s,
but very few could rise further - Ernest Bevin being one of the few exceptions

It wasn't until the 1960s that a few more started to come through and then it improved over the 70s and 80s
However, it was more the professional / managerial middle class that had new blood

The class / social divisions remain maybe more marked in the UK than probably in any other Western society - I doubt any site in the E27 had TWO threads over Christmas discussing solely class, as on MN

imo, the upper class have come back again with a bang in the 21st century to rule over us again
and most of the public seem servile & fawning towards the upper class, even as they despise the mc "experts"

Over breakfast, just an aside from DH. "You always know when the Tories are in charge because there are more people sleeping on the streets".

Maybe a mini series.
JRM shows how the new NHS will be by having a small operation without anaesthetic.

xebob "Citizenship of the EU" is only a consequence of citizenship of a member country
So Brexit automatically strips 65 million citizens of EU citizenship.

There were suggestions by 1-2 prominent MEPs that expat Brits could be given this after Brexit, possibly for an annual fee,
but that idea seems to have died out

British class sometimes seems like a caste system. When you look at the absolutely useless bulls'ers in gov't. They still had the connections to stand for the party. And the populace attribute as character, behaviour which would be outed as complete bs in those from less privileged backgrounds. J RM and B J to name two.

People who are vehementally against Brexit are spending energy to protect what they think is good for them.

Even if you’re correct, that does not mean that the economic interests of “poor people” and “people who are vehemently against Brexit” are not in alignment.

What, in particular, will be good about staying in the EU for people who are against Brexit, that isnt good for poor people? Conversely, what is good about leaving for poor people, that won’t be good to the others?

If you can put some substance behind what you’re saying, rather making sweeping generalisations, it would make for a more worthwhile discussion.

I was thinking more of our politicians and the Great and the Good, tbh. rather than those of us who are working to help on a day to day basis. I certainly wouldn't ever disparage the efforts of anyone doing even a little to help.

Most people in poverty are too busy worrying how they're going to feed the kids next week to have time to trawl through all the analysis and reports that crop up on a daily basis about Brexit. That's why they seem so uncaring about the situation.

They believe that all politicians are self-serving liars.
At the Referendum, they had the choice between one group of self-serving liars promising the Earth and another group of self-serving liars promising more of the same poverty, Austerity, zero-hours and struggle.
On the slim hope that one of them - you don't know which - might actually be telling the truth for once, which would you pick if you didn't know much about politics and you were in their position?

Since the Referendum, they've been largely ignored, unless told to just wait until Brexit, it's going to be so much worse and it's all your fault - you deserve everything that happens to you (as always!) because you believed these liars.

Who do they see promising to improve their lives and addressing their day to day problems? That'd be Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, believe him or not as you will.

What's the reaction from Remainers?
Get rid of Corbyn: he's useless.

It all serves to convince those people that no-one gives a damn about them and that they have no say on what happens in their lives.

We've been reading these excellent threads and we've read many of the links. We believe Brexit is going to make things so much worse for everyone. We know that the likes of Redwood, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and the rest are going to massively profit whilst stamping all over the poor and vulnerable. We're better aware politically and we've seen what these greedy, unscrupulous opportunists are like.
Know that, to most politically unaware people "they're all as bad as each other!" means exactly that. It's what they've been told, and what they've seen in their own lives: politicians promising help, and help not forthcoming.

If we want to engage people, especially if we're hoping to change their minds, we need to convince them what Remaining will do to improve their lives. Foodbanks and charity are desperately needed at the moment, but they come with shame and despair however much people genuinely appreciate the efforts of those who work hard to run them.

jm An economic crash and the country getting poorer always hits the most vulnerable the hardest.
There will be less money to spend, especially if unemployment spikes and tax take sinks, as predicted by the BoE.
If the

Those with wealth can buy properties and businesses more cheaply, or may invest in hedge funds, so they'll probably do well.
if there are shortages of anything, they won't suffer, or they can leave the country for the duration.

Anyone who depends on UC, JSA, WTC, disability benefit, child benefit, free nursery hours etc even public services like the NHS and care services will notice budget cuts

All of these will affect the poor more, those who don't have the equivalent of several months / years pay in savings & investments:

A no-deal Brexit could send the pound plunging and trigger a worse recession than the financial crisis

Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England has warned:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46377309

• The UK economy could shrink by 8% in 2019 < even 1% would be bad >

• ^GDP would take until nearly 2024 to return to current level

• Unemployment would rise to 7.5%^

• ^Inflation would rise to 6.6%

• House prices would fall by 30%^
  commercial property prices collapse by 48%.

• The pound could fall by 25%

Veteran Leave campaigner R North has warned for the last 2 years at least that NO Deal would be a catastrophe
e.g.
(comment #200)

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87068#comment-4216339094

"If EU trade collapses and we suffer knock-on effects, < and we don't roll over non-EU deals >
the consequences could be far worse that the BoE indicates

Its basic problem is you cannot model chaos.

And if that is the result of a "no deal" Brexit,
we could end up hoping that Carney's predictions were right."

Anyone who thinks they have nothing to lose, because they are already poor, is wrong
unless they are already destitute and sleeping on the streets

I don't think we can expect the railways to come to the rescue, even without failing Grayling's sterling efforts. Don't forget that during WW2 the Beeching cuts hadn't happened. At that time a significant number of places would be within a reasonable walking distance of a station - say three miles. Now people easily have to travel at least ten miles and whole areas are without this access even.

Because if we accept the narrative that the brightest and best (mainly men) gave their lives during WW2, it's rather obvious the people they left behind weren't necessarily the brightest and best. And they're the ones that went on to run the country in the 50s, 60s and 70s (depending on your definition of "run").

I think it's more nuanced than this - huge strides were made particularly with health and house building. Education was less successful - there was a lack of vision, and the Secondary Moderns introduced would have been a good solution for the 1930s but weren't up to the job for the 1950s, in the main, (there were some exceptions.) The people who gave their lives in the war would mostly have been in their twenties and early 30s. People normally come to political power in their 40s, so perhaps this is why things seemed to go so wrong in the 1970s after a 20 year lag? I think also, we hadn't fully realised that we had lost our empire and were still busy trying to shore it up, instead of accepting that it had gone, and that we needed to rebuild our own industrial infrastructure.

Young men who were the product of the public schools and Oxbridge were not necessarily the brightest and best - just the luckiest, ......

Absolutely, I give you Cameron, Johnson, Redwood, Farage as just a few examples......

The UK is already pretty cheap for food:
ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Comparative_price_levels_for_food,_beverages_and_tobacco
If you exclude tobacco, we’re below the average for the EU 28.

Reposting my previous as it may have gone wrong
ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Comparative_price_levels_for_food,_beverages_and_tobacco#Price_levels_for_food.2C_beverages_and_tobacco