Westminstenders: Break it or make it.

[RedToothBrush]

We have a deal on the table. In reality it does not answer the question the result of the referendum posed: what type of deal do we want? The progress we have actually made in 2 years is to say, 'we want to leave' but nothing more. Or as its been termed: 'Blind Brexit' in which we exit but without knowing what comes next.

Even this is controversial. There are apparently some 88 Conservative back bench MPs (or half the Conservative back bench MPs) who are intending to vote against approving the deal. Some are remainers and some are hard leavers. Each side believing there is still everything to play for; whether that be no deal or no brexit. We are still as divided as ever.

The stumbling block, as ever, is largely the NI backstop. With many still arguing that it should be time limited. This fails to understand that the backstop is the GFA to all intents and purposes. And this is why Ireland and the EU will never agree to have a time limited backstop.

And once again we have this fundamental misunderstanding that the withdrawal agreement is anything more than merely the mechanism to leave, not the final deal, which is hampering all discussion of the subject.

There is talk that May will try to push the deal through and if she fails she will try for a second time. This might work, if this wasn't being anticipated. The trouble is the element of surprise is gone. This has now been denied by a No10 spokesperson. And has the possibility of a second referendum. Though the door on that, seems to be more open than less, with May's official declaration of a Blind Brexit. The whole effectiveness of a TARP style situation and a second vote on the deal in the HoC is the guilotine effect, where MPs look over the cliff and go 'shiiiiiitttt'. If the hope is alive for another way out for either the ERG or Remainers, then the plan is dead anyway. The a50 ECJ case is also still on; the latest government appeal to kill it was blocked.

Not only this, but there is the first tangable rumblings of discontent within the EU towards the deal. Spain has talked about voting the deal down. Whether this is anymore than talk, remains to be seen. Spain can not veto the deal at this stage anyway - but it might be able to cause trouble further down the line and thats the danger.

Meanwhile Labour are still promising unicorns and a total renegotition of the deal. This still focuses on the backstop.

Sunday's EU summit does still seem to be on though, despite Merkel suggesting that she wouldn't turn up.

And remember, as it stands, on 29th March we will leave the EU without a deal. The power to stop this lies with the Government and EU as far as we know at present, pending the outcome of the ECJ case.

May still has everything to do to make a deal happen and there are so many forces and people working to break it. We have still not made any real progress to Brexit, apart from get closer to it, through the mere ticking of the clock.

[Cailleach1]

Oh heck, BigChoc I used to have to sit their all lunch hour until I finished, or be slippered. I once vomited up part of a meal, but was made to eat it

I can't unimagine that. What Dickensian establishment would make a child (or anyone) do that?

[Cailleach1]

No, Scooby. Yuck.

[merrymouse]

Manchester tart is a tart containing custard and jam and topped with coconut.

[1tisILeClerc]

Manchester tart is pastry with very gooey 'red' jam, a sprinkling of coconut? then cornflakes on top. Unless I am thinking of something else!
I would like to put a good word in for comprehensive schools. The ideals were good but I think a change of government policy after a few years meant that they didn't get all the support and all the intended plans through, before a different crazy idea was hatched.
I think the comps were better than 'secondary modern' schools.
Certainly held our own against the oiks at the grammar school up the road.

[MangoSplit]

Place marking

[prettybird]

I feel the need to point out that Scotland has had fully comprehensive education for over 40 years #justsaying - most areas for even longer than that.

[fieldgold]

Brexit is dead now.

We have less than we would have with WA by staying within the fold.

Well that is my opinion, who agrees with me now? And if you don't agree with me, what would you think is the absolute best exit strategy. No Deal maybe? LOL.

It doesn't exist, does it?

[Arborea]

If you're within striking distance of Manchester then it's worth making a trip to the Wild Mint cafe in Kendal's where their specialty is a gussied up Manchester tart. You'll have to be quick though as it's earmarked for closure in January

I have no connection with it, just a fan! www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g187069-d12903351-Reviews-Wild_Mint_Kitchen_Cafe-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=284288999

[borntobequiet]

Just googled and found recipe for Manchester Tart. Vile.
I was made to sit in front of a bowl of utterly horrible congealed porridge that smelt like glue when fresh and worse as the day went on, from 7:00 am until noon. “You will eat it.” I would not.

[RedToothBrush]

John James McGivern @johnjmcgivern
BREAK: @DUPleader says @duponline will revisit confidence and supply arrangement if Brexit withdrawal agreement is passed in the Commons.

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
Well. DUP position crystal clear. Meanwhile those Brexiteers who wanted Irish backstop changes to WA disappointed too. Tough

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
Brexit deal falls, May Government in crisis. Brexit deal passes, May’s working majority evaporates. Political checkmate.

This is fun.

If there's a deal the DUP screw May. If there's not a deal the DUP screw May.

[fieldgold]

OK, so it is this deal or no deal. Right?

Why leave so? Please give me some information on that, i.e the benefits of the WA as opposed to staying in EU. Just wondered what all the fuss was about TBH.

[Icantreachthepretzels]

the Minister for Defence Procurement, Stuart Andrew,

Oh, hey! he's my useless sack of shit mp. Who knew he was a minister?

Andrew did not have the number to hand, which prompted Mark Francois MP to splutter: "Oh come on, Stuart, this is your job!"

oh, look! he's shit at being a minister. Who's surprised?

[prettybird]

fieldgood - you're making a basic error and expecting logic

borntobequiet (and other "lovers" of Manchester Tart) - better be careful. Too many Googles and the makers of Great British Bake Off will decide it would be an interesting challenge for the Technical Bake

[missmoon]

This is interesting:

Tom Kibasi, IPPR
@TomKibasi

NEWS: Friends from European capitals tell me

1. May won’t be able to go back for concessions no matter what Parliament says
   

1. If there is a GE the EU will agree to A50 extension of ~8 weeks to EP elections
   

1. If there is a 2nd ref, EU will extend A50 “as long as necessary”

[BestIsWest]

Manchester tart has sentimental meaning for me. Years ago (20 plus) a cafe close to our offices sold it and we used to sneak out there during quiet periods. I still keep in touch with those colleagues (they were fab) and we send each other photos of Manchester tart when ever we see it on a menu (not often these days).
I should have been out with them tonight but am poorly so it’s funny seeing the Tart being mentioned when I am missing them.

[1tisILeClerc]

Just listened to Question time R4.
For the questions asked Kenneth Clarke was one of the most sensible speakers, although the 2 women were good too.
KC represented the kind of 'wisdom' that should have been listened to, rather than the soundbite madness we hear at the moment.

[Whatsnewwithyou]

.

[prettybird]

fieldgood - Dominic Raab agrees with you: staying in the EU is better than the WA. But that's not a very high bar: nothing can be better than staying in the EU as acknowledged by the government's own impact reports so he is essentially just stating a truism

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/dominic-raab-on-radio-4-today-programme-talking-brexit-1-5791873

[1tisILeClerc]

Sorry folks, I didn't mean Manchester tart, although that's good too, which is the school pud with pastry, jam and cornflakes?
Could just fancy 'dead man's leg' and custard (suet jam rolly poly) at the moment.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Cailleach1 Our school experiences are from the old "tougher" Britain that some Brexiters want to return to:

We had slippering on the bum, or smacking on legs, at teachers' discretion;
they could also send to the head for caning.

one teacher used to hit me without reason, because she was racist

• an added "joy" of my schooling, as the first non-white child at my primary school, was having "wog" yelled at me most days.

"spastic" was a general playground insult against any kid.

All this was legal and allowed

Children with SEN or physical disability who needed any extra support were sent to "special schools", great stigma;
often parents gave up such children to institutions as soon as the difference was diagnosed

I'm very glad we've progressed since then and I don't think it was particularly character-forming.

[BigChocFrenzy]

fieldgood Many Brexiters prefer the No Deal default to Remain or the WA

Some - like our ploppers - out of ignorance / stubborn ignoring of the consequences
A few - like many in the ERG - intend to make profits for themselves or their backers
A few others - e.g. the Norths - have full knowledge and won't profit, but choose "sovereignty" and hence prioritise "meaningful" Brexit and leaving the CU above economics

No Deal is still the favoured option for about ⅓ of all voters, imo mostly in the ignorant / stubborn category.

[1tisILeClerc]

BCF 'ouch' I remember some of those 'names' too!
My sister managed to get through the same secondary school without realising she was in a 'special' group, it was handled very well.
In primary school there was a black plimsoll lurking menacingly on a shelf near the door, but I don't remember it being used.

[fieldgold]

If only the NO DEAL folk would outline what that means. Am still waiting.... And will be it seems.

The current WA is the best we can get without a crash out NO DEAL.

But it sounds to me like a Stay In on the margins just to maintain an FTA with EU and keep things going, pay in, observe the rules, but no say whatsoever, and so on.

Surely staying in would be better at the price of this half baked ideology. But what do I know....

[1tisILeClerc]

{Sajid Javid abandons plans to ban .50-calibre military-grade guns }
From the Guardian.
That's a good move, I DON'T think.

[jasjas1973]

Interesting piece on the role Bercow has/will play and backs up why i said earlier its imperative he stays, obv May would love to get rid and no doubt why some have dug up the dirt on the guy.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/22/the-guardian-view-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-all-options-remain-open?fbclid=IwAR2dhwQFsaqPr9aTi2jLamj_UI--rx2Uq9GUIZJoAtEFHm2xIe6AVzbeDhA