Tory Voting Brexiters, please tell me what you think

[ShintyFartMuscle]

Ok first of all, hands up, I am abroad and so I feel I'm not getting a true picture of the feelings in the UK now, and I have found there are more MNetters with differing views and so I thought it would be good to ask here, and I do so most respectfully.

My question is what is it about the Tories and Teresa May that make you think they will be the best at negotiating Brexit?

From where I am, very,very far away, I know, JC has gone from a rank outsider, despised by half his party and yet he has still gained massive ground, and made people feel some hope in the future. That feels like the kind of person that could negotiate well for a divided nation too.

On the other hand, TM has gone from a stonking position, way ahead in the polls, and lost it, U turns, and well just not looking like she is strong in debate, and not going to be strong in negotiating.

So what would the Tories bring to the table as it were?

Peregrina

I see you have no challenges to my previous post on how untrustworthy Labour was from 2000 with a non-democratic Blair and advisors ‘sofa policy’, to throw open our borders to increase UK ‘multiculturalism’ through mass immigration – which shows they can’t be trusted on that issue.

Instead you chose to misrepresent PM May re why after numerous obstructions within parliament before and what was to be after Article 50, she chose to call an election because she could not trust parliament and the Lords to not keep getting in the way of an EU deal, especially those MPs saying a ‘Soft’ Brexit was EVER on the EU’s table, as it wasn’t.

The turmoil within Labour, where the Corbyn and McDonnell hard left pretend to agree a policy with the Labour Parliamentary Party is not just a farce but a potential national disaster in waiting;

• Where on Trident he pretends he’s for it, in meetings he says as PM he will scrap it.

• On an Independent Scotland he pretends Labour is unionist, then a week before the election he tells his coalition in waiting partner Sturgeon, he will discuss Indy 2, after the general election.

• On Brexit Corbyn campaigns on observing the Referendum result and the UK leaving the Single Market, yet is KNOWN to favour the ‘Norway’ model, and has again just cited Norway when talking about access to the single market re HIS delusional request, in meeting EU Negotiator Barnier next Thursday to talk about Brexit.

Nothing like trying to undermine both a peoples Referendum and peoples General Election not giving him a mandate to run a bath, never mind EU negotiations.

In other words, Corbyn has lied to the electorate yet again, as the Norway model would means ‘Freedom of Movement’ between the UK and EU which just goes to prove whether New Labour in 2000 or new Old Labour in 2017 – the UK citizens cannot TRUST Labour on UK immigration, or much else really.

Missmoon

You say “The problem with this reasoning is that there isn't a fixed number of jobs in the economy. The economy can and does expand following migration, and this creates more jobs for locals etc.”

Well the immediate problem I see with your reasoning is that if 500 million citizens can encourage EU growth and jobs creation, why on earth is the EU of 26 other countries (excluding Germany) growth and job creation record so rubbish – so that nearly 3 million EU citizens had to come over here during the 2000s in the first place?

That question isn’t what Labour advisors used to call racist, its an observation on one of the biggest Remainer lies there is, that the EU is some jobs machine, especially for our youth living here, or whats available to them over in the EU.

So the UK gets punished within the EU for having more open labour laws and dependable lower taxes CREATING the near 3 million private sector jobs since 2010, as EU and non EU citizens flood here for work, but the former has the rights to come and live here before finding work, putting yet more pressure on UK homes and services.

As for your “upskilling and jobs for the locals” during the first decade of this millennium whether due to our underskilled workforce, the then government leaving our workers on the scrap heap rather than train them, the rush to bring migrants in, or a combination of those factors – the fact was that of all the new UK jobs created in that decade, between 85 and 95% of them were filled by citizens born outside this country.

Mistrigri

How can you possibly say that by now a ‘bespoke Brexit deal has not been formulated by this government as a criticism, when NOTHING could be negotiated with the EU until Article 50 was triggered, and the EU bureaucrats negotiating list will NOT allow an all-encompassing deal to be struck – it has to be in their order over 2- years plus, with trade, where they sell more to us than we them, at the end.

Furthermore Barnier says that “frictionless trade will not be possible” as we will be out of the Single Market, so the EU are obviously throwing a wobbler they will have to find jobs for their own citizens, as they export more to us, than the UK to them so they will pay more tariffs than us.

So the UK cabinet strategy has to be adjusted on time tables etc , when these pearls from an EU trying to do us economic harm, come out, as the more uncertainty they cause for UK businesses, they hope the jobs will go over to the EU instead.

YOUR biggest joke, the “low hanging fruit” of citizens rights we haven’t accepted, well firstly ii was May’s priority late last year, when she tried to reason away from the non elected by citizens EU bureaucrats with Merkel for a deal pre Article 50 - but those sad fecks in Brussels said ‘no, the rules are the rules, even though we have 3 million plus citizens hanging, and you have 1 million plus hanging’ – which showed the Brussels little negotiating list made first, was their priority, not the rights of citizens.

As for the EU ex pat ‘deal’ where the European Court of Justice (we want to dump) and EU employment laws that create so many unemployment problems in the EU, they insist will trump our laws, well tell me, WHY should other workers have more rights here than ours – and how many other countries have ex pat workers within, overseen by an external court and employment rights???

THAT alone shows both ‘the spirit’ of EU negotiations, and why this unwieldy entity run by consensus of a small army of Brussels bureaucrats and 28 states, has major disadvantages now and in the future to the more nimble mature economies, and emerging countries outside the EU, causing EU big nob Juncker to think their glory days are at an end. Bless.

How can you possibly say that by now a ‘bespoke Brexit deal has not been formulated by this government as a criticism, when NOTHING could be negotiated with the EU until Article 50 was triggered,

Of course a bespoke deal hasn't been negotiated. Trade deals take the best part of a decade to agree. But having an actual plan might, nevertheless, be a good idea.

Frictionless trade

We're a year from the referendum and you still haven't understood the basics of trade blocs and customs unions. That's fine (economics is my job; it's probably not yours) but it's odd to spend so much time on this without taking the trouble to grasp the most basic facts.

Frictionless trade depends on being inside both the single marker and the customs union. Even Norway as an EEA member doesn't have frictionless trade, though there are ways of reducing the friction. Outside both the EEA and the EU we will be a third party; our status will not permit special deals unless we negotiate a comprehensive FTA or enter a customs union. The WTO and GATT (i.e. international trade law) preclude special arrangements except in the case of comprehensive trade deals. If you offer a good deal to one trading partner then you have to offer it to all of them (or at least all WTO members, if you are a WTO member yourself - and even the most clueless brexiters have yet to suggest that we also WTOexit).

As for citizens' rights. You're so wrong on so many points that I have
lost the will to argue with such utter drivel. If this is the quality of pro-Brexit argument (and it pretty much is, right to the very top) then we are all fucked and we might as well all go to the pub instead.

I don't address problems with the New Labour Government because they were voted out of Office in 2010. May is in Government now - so the problems are hers to sort out.

Instead you chose to misrepresent PM May re why after numerous obstructions within parliament before and what was to be after Article 50, she chose to call an election because she could not trust parliament and the Lords to not keep getting in the way of an EU deal, especially those MPs saying a ‘Soft’ Brexit was EVER on the EU’s table, as it wasn’t.

Pull the other one. A50 was passed with exactly how many amendments delaying it for exactly how long? May called an election believing the opinion polls and thinking she would romp home to a big majority. She failed to do that - she misread the public mood.

Peregrina

Really, so what is Corbyn’s record and the EU; he voted against in the 1975 EU (then Common Market) Referendum, against Maastricht, and a decade ago opposed the Lisbon Treaty under Blair rubber stamping the UK’s involvement in the current EU – when Labour had promised a Referendum, but didn’t deliver it.

So in other words, his personal record shows Corbyn has been anti EU for 40 odd years.

Yet Corbyn then as Labour leader of a Labour Parliamentary Party that had over 200 MP Remainers within, he flip flopped and accepted their view, but like ‘Remainer’ May, did diddly squat during the Referendum campaign to support their party’s line.

So pre the last election, how did May know WHICH Corbyn, who during the general election wanted to appear on both Leave and Remain sides, would be there at crucial EU votes in Westminster?

Which power delusional Corbyn saying he is ready for a September general election, just requested to see, and is going to meet EU Chief Negotiator Barnier on Thursday - sending a pro EU negotation signal that the UK government is weak and Westminster MPs are totally divided on the EU - rather than his election soap box, that he respects the will of the people by EU Referendum?

May could not trust Corbyn and his ‘kinder politics’, who as a serial opposer in his OWN party since 1983, now kinda hates anyone who disagrees with him, even promising deselection in his own party, this man is neither someone to be trusted or who plays nicely with anyone.

Now what would ‘Mable in Macclesfield’ say in her letter to him, trusting him at one of his words at the ballot box, to respect the EU Referendum result – rather than personally visit a hardening EU negotiation that should be met with a UNITED UK POSITION, rather than his own political agenda?

Mistigri

Re your “Of course a bespoke deal hasn't been negotiated. Trade deals take the best part of a decade to agree. But having an actual plan might, nevertheless, be a good idea.”

As the EU interpreting Article 50 as all negotiations are on their time table, have THEY not said that they will not discuss trade until the end of negotiations, when we wanted to approach all subjects simultaneously but settled on a deal is not done, until all areas agreed?

And NEWSFLASH we are not looking to start from scratch and negotiate a trade deal, we currently AGREE and so harmonised on 100% of trade etc, so how simple can it be for a small army of Brussels jobsworths, to negotiate with the UK what ISN’T going to remain the same – or hasn’t the other 27 countries either yet decided, or willing to tell their businesses how trade with the UK will be affected due to the current EU negotiation position???

On the EEA etc, on the assumption that in the Single Market we have currently got a better deal than Canada, which ones are Canada in when getting 98.6% tariff free trading, in a trade deal that also paves the way for access to public procurement between the two markets and empowers regulatory bodies to accept the standards and tests carried out in each other’s jurisdictions – as if good will on the EU’s part, if they can’t work DOWN from the UKs 100% current compliance – then why not work UP from a similar deal the EU just did with Canada?

But in mentioning EU ‘good will’, maybe I’m answering my own question.

On the WTO, according to the head, if no deal IS possible, we shouldn’t fear that eventuality;

“Brexit will not cause UK trade 'disruption' – WTO boss”

“Roberto Azevedo dismisses fears Britain could suffer a sudden seizure of trade during or after its negotiations with the EU.”

“The head of the World Trade Organisation has vowed to ensure Britain will not face a trade "vacuum or a disruption", however tough its exit from the European Union.”

And re citizens, when that idiot Verhofstadt says he will get the European Parliament to vote against any final deal if EU citizens don’t have more rights here (than they have in say Canada or America) after being TOLD how OUT of the EU we will be, you know we are dealing with anti UK slippery socialist bureaucrats, or a Federalist who is 'a nugget short of a happy meal.