Pro EU event

[Brumella]

If you are feeling like me that what is happening to our country is just wrong and you cannot sit at home quietly and let it happen, please consider coming to Birmingham on Sunday! www.euinbrum.org/nationalrallysun2oct
You will be amongst friends - come and celebrate all the EU has done for us and show the Tories (who will also be in Birmingham on their conference that we haven't gone away).
Please come; we could all find something else to do with our time, but help make our voice (of reason) heard!

We'd be free to negotiate our own trade and immigration agreements with other nations.
Like burning down your house and declaring 'now we're free to live anywhere!'

Like burning down your house and declaring 'now we're free to live anywhere!'

Not if your house is a prison.

In what way is the EU 'a prison'? Why do you think the citizens of this country will have more freedom post-Brexit?

Not if your house is a prison.

Get banged up in another prison, and have extra time added to your sentence, for arson?

Take back control - no kow-towing to EU regulations - instead spend years and years and volumes of paperwork and red tape negotiating agreements not as good as the present one.

Like burning down your house and declaring 'now we're free to live anywhere!'

Hmmm. Most countries are not in the EU. Do they have burned down houses?

Of course, there will probably be a painful transition period: currently, things are set up for trade and free movement with the EU. But europe is the continent, after Antarctica, with the slowest growth, and all indications are things are going to get worse there (I'd argue because of the EU). Negotiating trade deals with higher growth areas (Asia, Africa, even North America) could really be beneficial.

Why do you think the citizens of this country will have more freedom post-Brexit?

I don't. I am one of the few people that likes freedom of movement (even many remainers are not pro-freedom of movement), but sees much of the rest of the EU apparatus as mainly a pound/euro sink. That is more or less (free trade) what we signed up for years ago. Where did all the extra cruft come from?

instead spend years and years and volumes of paperwork and red tape negotiating agreements not as good as the present one.
But, then the paperwork ends, and we are done. Unlike continued membership of the EU. And, why would we not be able to get good trade deals?? I think you have been drinking too much of the remainders koolaid, with all this down talking of the UK, we're really not as bad as you'd like to think.

But, then the paperwork ends, and we are done.

Far from it - if we wish to trade with the EU, then the paperwork continues. We will have to prove where the goods were made. So welcome to a world where lorries are not waved through customs to drive to (say) Austria, but are waved into a pound, their cargoes opened up for inspection, and their documents checked. If wrong, the cargo doesn't go through. Ever tried importing something from the US and had it held up in Customs? Magnify that nnnn times.

But, then the paperwork ends, and we are done.

You think? Ok then.

As for the EU prison. We are busy creating HM Prison with the executive power that May wants contained within the 'Great' Repeal Act.

The reality is, that if you support Brexit then the means by which it is carried out is rather important. A50 via the Royal Prerog is not necessarily a good thing for a great many leavers nor democracy.

Even if you are a Leaver there is actually reason to support legal challenges to force the PM to get a50 triggered by an Act of Parliament, which relate to accountability.

May's comment about the courts being used as a means to subvert democracy is actually quite sinister. It asserts that the courts do not support freedom nor democracy. It asserts that PM is above scrutiny by the law. It could be interpreted as a way to try and deter people from questioning things or using the legal system for their own protect against government. It could be interpreted as trying to intimidate those making legal challenges to drop them.

Its also worryingly similar to the tactic Erdogan used to save his neck and bring about a political purge.

The court system is a very important and integral part of the democratic system. It SHOULD NOT necessarily support the ruling government. It is there to ensure that the power of government is not abused for the protection of the interests of the people.

You actually do not need to be a Remainer to support this. Indeed if you are a Leave you may well be in a position where you have most to loose by such a power grab that this entails.

The lack of accountability that the EU has can not be replaced by a lack of accountability by our own government.

In defending Brexit, be careful not to defend undemocratic stuff.

I don't think it will all be rosy, not by any stretch

I agree Chili and this is one of many aspects of Brexit that makes me angry. I did not vote for this, my children did not vote for this, nor did 63%'of the population and many of those that did were criminally mislead. I do not want a period of turmoil and hard times! Are we going to be better off at the end of it? Umm probably not.

I am not an expert on business, but can't see anything wrong with the trading arrangements we have; we already trade with non EU countries. In my day to day life with friends, we have moaned about the NHS, but the single market? Can't say it's been the bane of our lives can we?

As for immigration; I appreciate that everyone's experiences are different, but I have benefitted only positively from freedom of movement. Wonderful wonderful friends locally who make our community so much richer. I hate the fact that they should be allowed to stay here, but may not even want to and that in future generations those like them may choose not to or be unable to come. My late father was cared for in a nursing home with many eastern European care workers before his death a couple of years ago. They were extremely hard- working, kind, polite and SO glad to be here. I feel so sorry when I think how they are feeling now.

We've been robbed.

Yes to all of that, Brumella

I did not vote for this, my children did not vote for this, nor did 63%'of the population and many of those that did were criminally mislead.

that's an interesting take, because 0% voted for the EU. In the previous referendum on the topic, the EU was nothing like now. We voted for a customs union, which slowly morphed into a super state, without consulting the people on if this is what they want. The UK should probably have put this up when Ireland and others voted on it.

I can't say I agree with criminally misled. the entirety of both campaigns were 100% speculation on what would happen if we left, from billions more for the NHS, to WW3. DP, a pretty hardcore remainer, talks about the bus ad as being misleading and I just don't see it. Every campaign ad I have ever seen has that level of "misinformation" on it. It's not a manifesto, detailed budget or a promise. I find the focus on that ad rather odd.

I don't know what an honest campaign from both sides would have said. The only honest thing to say would be that we don't know until we renegotiate with the EU (from both sides).

Most of my friends here are european. I am pro free movement. I am one of those who really benefits from the EU. But people haven't been taking the concerns of the working class and non-urbanites seriously for about a generation now. And we are surprised it blew up in our faces? It's funny to see the surprise in the context of europe itself. you see powerful nationalist parties all across europe. The EU is just fuel for the fire.

Every campaign ad I have ever seen has that level of "misinformation" on it. It's not a manifesto, detailed budget or a promise. I find the focus on that ad rather odd.

Why do you find it 'odd'? The reason people are focussing on it is because the NHS is dear to almost every citizen. Most people don't care about 'detailed budgets' or the finer details of economic arguments. By focussing on the NHS, the Leave campaign cynically manipulated the electorate's emotions. People are aware that the NHS is struggling and this was presented to 'the people' as a way of 'saving' it. Bear in mind, that many voters are not remotely politically engaged and listen to and believe soundbites. like this woman.

Do you honestly believe the Leave campaign didn't know EXACTLY what it was doing and how powerful that slogan was? I have a friend of a friend who voted 'for the money to go to the NHS'. Personally, I think she's a simpleton, but you're surely not unaware that people vote for simplistic or frivolous reasons. The tragedy is that they walk away from the ballot box and probably don't give the referendum a further thought. Even if they lost their jobs/savings as a result of it, they would probably fail to make the connection.

www.facebook.com/skynews/videos/1476444299036829/

People are aware that the NHS is struggling and this was presented to 'the people' as a way of 'saving' it. Bear in mind, that many voters are not remotely politically engaged and listen to and believe soundbites.

people must also be aware that the Leave campaign and the Conservative sitting government are very different. Leave could have promised the country a round of pints every week with that money, but it doesn't mean anything. They are not the government, and why anyone would think the Leave campaign has ANY control over the budget is beyond me.

people must also be aware that the Leave campaign and the Conservative sitting government are very different
You are really over-estimating the political awareness of some voters. If they hear senior Tory MPs making these claims (IDS, Gove, BoJo etc), I think they very much do associate it with 'the government'.

While some of us were shouting at the radio 'You can't say that; you have no authority to make that claim', as I did when Patel was on Radio 4 saying the government would provide funds for universities post-Brexit, others were no doubt thinking 'Well, she must know a thing or two. She's an MP.'

Some voted Leave to get rid of Muslims. Are you honestly trying to claim that people like this understand there's a difference between what IDS, BoJo etc can do as Leave Campaigners (ie. nothing) and what they can do as MPs (have some influence)?

Johnson and Leasdom were two very visible faces of the Leave campaign and they are in Government, so they can and should be pressing for their claims to be made good. That they are not just shows what a spineless, self serving bunch they are.

Most of my friends here are european. I am pro free movement. I am one of those who really benefits from the EU

Yet you voted Leave? How do you feel about losing freedom of movement? And how have your European friends taken your stance?

Yes totally agree this was a big two fingers up from those who have suffered under austerity. Yet they will probably be the ones to suffer the ill effects of Brexit, along with the EU that served largely as a scapegoat.