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Brexit

Well, there goes one pipedream we were sold ...

72 replies

LurkingHusband · 05/09/2016 16:56

That the UK could magic up a "points based system" for immigration.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420

For anyone planning on marrying a foreigner (assuming it's not made illegal) this should give them pause for thought :

"I want a system where the government is able to decide who comes into the country - I think that's what the British people want. A points-based system means that people come in automatically if they just meet the criteria," she added.

So rather than a predetermined set of criteria, every case is chosen on it's merits ? No chance of any latent racism rearing it's head there, then ?

OP posts:
TheElementsSong · 06/09/2016 10:43

You don't have to actually live in an area to be concerned about an impact on it though.

My understanding was that (broadly, apart from the specific areas Pere mentioned) many areas that had little immigration voted Out, whilst many areas that had higher immigration voted In - not just London but other cities too. So people who had little experience of immigrants were voting out of the goodness of their hearts to save the city-dwellers from themselves, as those poor sods didn't know that they were experiencing a dreadful impact?

MangoMoon · 06/09/2016 10:56

City dwellers are not the be all & end all, even though many think they are Wink

So no, I don't think people were 'saving the city dwellers from themselves'.
Especially as the major cities have experienced much less negative impact from unskilled economic migrants than smaller cities, large towns & more rural areas have.

TheElementsSong · 06/09/2016 11:09

City dwellers are not the be all & end all, even though many think they are

Did I say that? I was querying who was being saved from massive immigration by the votes of those who were themselves experiencing hardly any immigration, yet were deeply concerned for others.

But there was plenty of outrage expressed about those views so I didn't think I needed to add my two penith.

I have been thinking about this, Corcory, and actually if you deplore such views, you do need to add your input. What did the poster in question experience on that thread? She posted some bizarre xenophobic nonsense (and not for the first time, I have seen her posts before) and furthermore asserted that most Leavers shared her views. A number of Remainers expressed outrage. She doesn't give a shit about Remainers. The only Leaver who responded did so with a huge cheer. No Leaver showed up to say, "Whoa there, that is Not Cool." The poster goes away thinking that she was totally right.

Other posters go away thinking that some Leavers think it is more important to big up "their side" than to call out bad behaviour.

Peregrina · 06/09/2016 11:20

Even when the Tories have finished wrecking the NHS, there will still be a need for some sort of health service, so I can't see there being any less need for immigrants to staff it. I do wonder who the Leave camp will blame when the wards are staffed by Indians, Filipinos, Nigerians, Ghanaians etc. ?

twofingerstoGideon · 06/09/2016 11:24

Nationality, country of origin, colour of skin, religion, etc etc etc had no bearing at all on the vast majority of voters (obviously a vocal minority are the exception, but any right minded person does not subscribe to that view in my experience).

APOLOGIES, BUT THERE IS SOME HIDEOUS, RACIST LANGUAGE INCLUDED IN THIS POST.

There is significant evidence to the contrary. Here's one example captured on video:
link

Here are the 25 events that were recorded between 24 and 27 June that directly related to Brexit. Please be aware that some of the language is offensive:

A Welsh Muslim councillor was told to pack her bags and leave.
A man in a petrol station shouted: "You're an Arabic ct, you're a terrorist" at an Arab driver and stated he “voted them out”.
A Barnsley man was told to leave and that the aggressor’s parents had voted for people like him to be kicked out.
A woman witnessed a man making victory signs at families at a school where a majority of students are Muslim.
A man shouted, “you f*king Muslim, f*king EU out,” to a woman in Kingston, London.
An Indian man was called “p*i c*t in a suit” and told to “leave”.
Men circled a Muslim woman in Birmingham and shouted: “Get out - we voted Leave.”
A British Asian mother and her two children were told: "Today is the day we get rid of the likes of you!" by a man who then spat at her.
A man tweeted that his 13-year-old brother received chants of “bye, bye, you’re going home”.
A van driver chanted “out, out, out”, at a Muslim woman in Broxley, Luton
Muslims in Nottingham were abused in the street with chants of: “Leave Europe. Kick out the Muslims.”
A Muslim woman at King’s Cross, London, had “BREXIT” yelled in her face.
A man in London called a South Asian woman “foreigner” and commented about UKIP.
A man shouted “p
i” and “leave now” at individuals in a London street.
A taxi driver in the West Midlands told a woman his reason for voting Leave was to “get rid of people like you”.
An Indian cyclist was verbally abused and told to “leave now”.
A man on a bike swore at a Muslim family and muttered something about voting.
In Newport, a Muslim family who had not experienced any trouble before had their front door kicked in.
A South Asian woman in Manchester was told to “speak clearly” and then told “Brexit”.
A Sikh doctor was told by a patient: “Shouldn’t you be on a plane back to Pakistan? We voted you out.”
An abusive tweet read: “Thousands of raped little White girls by Muslims mean nothing to Z….#Brexit”.
A group of men abused a South Asian man by calling him a “p*i c*t” and telling him to go home after Brexit.
A man shouted at a taxi driver in Derby: "Brexit, you pi.”
Two men shouted at a Muslim woman walking towards a mosque “muzzies out” and “we voted for you being out.”
A journalist was called a “p
i” in racial abuse apparently linked to Brexit.

link to above quotes

twofingerstoGideon · 06/09/2016 11:27

And I agree with Peregrina that Farage stirred up racism and he did so in an undeniably blatant manner.

whatwouldrondo · 06/09/2016 11:45

The issue is though that many Leave voters perception of what was happening in areas of high immigration came from the way it was presented in certain parts of the media. Corcory and Moon. Do you think that the Sun, Times, Telegraph and Mail provided objective and balanced coverage of the issue? The reality is that just two people Murdoch and Dacre had control of how that message was presented to the overwhelming majority of newspaper readers, we saw that Murdoch was celebrating with Farage and Fox the next day. Paul Dacre was the first person Theresa May dined with after declaring her leadership challenge.

I don't doubt the issues experienced in Boston and the Fenlands, I saw the front page coverage in the Sun and Mail on the newsstands. It should have been addressed by the government providing the necessary resources since these were EU immigrants doing what was asked of them, flowing to where there was an economic need. However they are small towns, the number of people affected is tiny, the population of Boston is 41,000. The population of London 8.6m, Manchester 2.5m, Liverpool 2.2m, Bristol 0.5m. So communities that account for 15m of the UKs population who have considerable experience of the direct effects of immigration voted to remain. How much coverage was there of the positive experiences of people who live in those communities, as opposed to EU immigrant criminality for instance, or indeed painting the cities as full of privileged metropolitan elites? I have just spent some time in Brexit land and some of the perceptions leave you gasping. I was told that half of the prison population is made up of immigrants, we are getting all the criminals from the EU. I asked where that came from, it was in the Times apparently. A quick perusal of the official statistics and of the prison population of 95000, 10000 are immigrants, of whom 5000 are from the EU.

Instead of balanced coverage we have had divisive coverage that exploited existing resentment and xenophobia (which incidentally is a perfectly normal human emotion that indeed holds sway over government policy in many countries such as China but after what happened in Europe in living memory you would think we would understand the need to rise above that and focus on our humanity.) to sell newspapers and consolidate Murdoch and Dacre's power.

twofingerstoGideon · 06/09/2016 11:48

And then we have the pro-Brexit stance of the Daily Express and their xenophobic headlines...
And the other newspapers shit-stirring, too.
And Nigel's big poster.

While I wouldn't claim that ALL Brexit voters are racists/xenophobes, but the 'small, vocal minority' claim doesn't really wash.

Well, there goes one pipedream we were sold ...
Well, there goes one pipedream we were sold ...
GingerbreadGingerbread · 06/09/2016 11:51

Apparently a points based system is usually used in countries wanting to increase the number of immigrants (that was said on radio 4 yesterday) and therefore not suitable for the UK which is seeking to reduce the number of immigrants. Therefore the favoured system is the work visa already used for non EU immigration in this country and it is expected that will be rolled out to include immigrants from the UK. It means anyone coming here needs to be sponsored by a UK employer.

GingerbreadGingerbread · 06/09/2016 11:54

Irritating how people can't just debate the facts without getting hysterical and spouting absolute nonsense.

LauraMipsum · 06/09/2016 11:58

WE ALREADY HAVE A POINTS BASED SYSTEM

Sorry about the shouting. It's what I was shouting at the radio yesterday.

We have had a points based system since 2007ish. Here it is, this is the gobbledigook we have to work with every day (the Court of Appeal have called it Byzantine, and quite frankly that's being kind)

www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-part-6a-the-points-based-system

Obviously this applies only to non-EEA migrants at the moment. So yesterday TM said there wouldn't be a points based system for EEA migrants, instead our current work permit and student system would be extended to them.

What system is that, I hear you cry.

The points based system.

I can't work out whether all this is

a) because neither TM nor anybody else actually knows what the immigration system in this country looks like at the moment (unlikely - TM was SSHD for a long time)

b) because they know nobody else knows what it looks like, and can therefore do a Big Reveal of the Points Based System without actually changing it, and everyone will love them and think they got what they wanted when actually they got what was already there

c) something else

LauraMipsum · 06/09/2016 11:59

Exactly Gingerbread that's the same report I was listening to.

Therefore the favoured system is the work visa already used for non EU immigration in this country

Guess what that "work visa" system is. It's the "Points Based System" that we already have.

lolsob

Corcory · 06/09/2016 12:00

Twofingers - what are you on? Moon states something specifically saying what she is NOT in agreement with which is non racist but because she had the temerity to describe the sections of the community she had absolutely no problems with you start shouting!! How the F... else is she supposed to explain her position.
Whatwould - my reason for being against unlimited EU migration is that I feel very strongly that we should not discriminate against any nationality or race at all and that everyone should be treated the same.
I believe that the government needs to increase training and places available for professions that we have shortages in such as Nurses and Doctors to reduce the need for agency nurses and long high pressured working hours in medicine. If we have a need for additional staff I have absolutely no problem where they come from.

whatwouldrondo · 06/09/2016 12:10

Gingerbread The actual nature of the Australian system was also being highlighted before the referendum, this from 1 June but of course then nobody was interested in facts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/brexiters-missing-point-australian-style-immigration-conservatives?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Vince Cable on the existing system for non EU immigration. "Although I had difficult exchanges with the home secretary Theresa May and prime minister over immigration controls on non-EU students and skilled workers, almost all Conservative colleagues and ministers agreed, at least privately, that their policies were seriously damaging to business, universities and the wider national economic interest. As a Lib Dem, I was able to speak publicly about the way the government’s claim to be “open for business” was being undermined" It is called shooting yourself in the foot......

MangoMoon · 06/09/2016 12:13

I was querying who was being saved from massive immigration by the votes of those who were themselves experiencing hardly any immigration, yet were deeply concerned for others.

Immigration was only one part of it.

I rarely even look at EU Ref threads now tbh due to the inevitable leap to 'racists!', closely followed by reams of facts about why Leave voters were duped & hopefully will get their just desserts.

Corcory, to be fair to TwoFingers, I don't think the shouty caps were about my wording but about the incidents she listed after.

However, whilst all of those incidents and others are appalling, nasty, shocking, disgusting & unforgivable - they are still small in number considering the size of the population (as crass as that sounds, and I apologise for being so blunt, I'm honestly not trying to dismiss or minimise them).

Over 17 million people voted to leave - there has been a vocal & violent minority of nasty people, but they were always there.
The vast majority of the 17+ million Leave voters have not & do not behave in that way.

whatwouldrondo · 06/09/2016 12:14

Corcory I understand your views but my point is do you think that the papers I highlighted presented a balanced view of the effects of immigration, given that clearly from all the polls etc it was one of the most significant issues influencing voters?

twofingerstoGideon · 06/09/2016 12:16

Corcory What are YOU on?
The shouting you refer to was a warning about the language to follow (in the extract from the New Statesman article). I don't know how you think that constitutes me 'shouting' at Mango. I have not accused any poster on this thread of voting leave for racist reasons. I absolutely accept that many voted out for other reasons. However, I do not accept that only a 'small, vocal minority' of people voted leave for xenophobic/racist reasons, although I see why you would wish to disassociate yourselves with the views of such people. I'm entitled to that opinion am I not?

twofingerstoGideon · 06/09/2016 12:17

Corcory, to be fair to TwoFingers, I don't think the shouty caps were about my wording but about the incidents she listed after.
Yes, Mango, you're right. Sorry I didn't see your response before pressing the 'post' button' on my last posting.

MangoMoon · 06/09/2016 12:29

No worries! Smile

Corcory · 06/09/2016 12:43

Apologies Twofingers, I did misinterpret what you were shouting about. However Mango did quite specifically state that there was a very vocal minority, and these people really really do not represent the majority of leave voters.
whatwould, I certainly don't agree with most of the articles in the papers you mentioned about immigration but I would say that there are biases in all factions of the media and I am sure there are papers spouting off the opposite view other wise why would I and many others on these boards constantly be called racist - where does that come from?

OvariesForgotHerPassword · 06/09/2016 12:47

Especially as the major cities have experienced much less negative impact from unskilled economic migrants than smaller cities, large towns & more rural areas have.

It doesn't get much more rural than Gwynedd in Wales. An area with surprisingly high immigration for such a rural area - and an area that voted to Remain.

MangoMoon · 06/09/2016 12:58

Which is precisely the reason why you cannot pigeon hole 'What A Leave Voter Is', no matter how desperately you'd like to.

Immigration was one reason why people voted to leave.

Mistigri · 06/09/2016 13:24

Clearly people voted with different motives.

However, the result is being presented as a mandate for ending free movement. If that's not what people voted for, then we have a problem.

whatwouldrondo · 06/09/2016 13:26

Corcory I have never actually called anyone on these boards racist but I have challenged racist rhetoric which I know to be outright wrong or misleading such as the use of the word indigenous or the claim that Eastern European community centres are somehow a tool of non integration. It comes from, in the first case the OED I don't dare mention Masters level study of Anthropology and in the second from direct experience of Eastern European community centres actually being a tool of integration. I am sorry but both those manifestations of the motivation behind the leave vote were racist.

I, and most educated people, understand that you need to assess the source as well as the message and read from a variety of sources, including if at all possible primary sources. Part of the reason I enjoy Reds thread is it exposes you to a lot of different sources of information and opinion. During this referendum I have seen family members and friends who I thought knew better and people in the wider community spout rhetoric and tropes/spin that came directly from the Mail / Times / Telegraph. They claim they are not racist whilst spouting the stories about doctors surgeries in Boston in Lincolnshire as if they are representative of the whole country and without reference to the pressures on the NHS and schools in areas where there is no immigration, seemingly blinded to the fact that the coverage of the experience in a handful of small towns affecting a few people was out of all proportion and not representative of the experience of immigration in the country as a whole, and that that in itself was racist.

Corcory · 06/09/2016 13:42

I would never suggest you called anyone racist whatwould but others have. Smallfox has even suggested that I am hiding my racism behind my reasonableness(or a word like that I forget exactly)!
People are too quick to shout racist at the least thing and suggesting that the Tories will never do anything altruistic and will only do things for the benefit of big business and capitalism at the expense of everything else.
These views also have to come from somewhere.
I too am grateful to Red for her updates and posts.

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