BREXIT and the NHS

[twofingerstoGideon]

Cuts to NHS services currently being planned

I've seen Brexit voters on MN claim that they 'never believed' the 'more funding for the NHS' slogans anyway, even though it was a mainstay of the leave campaign, but wonder how they feel about the news that massive cuts are being planned to the health service.

Here's a reminder of the campaign slogan: We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund our NHS instead. Vote leave.

I imagine Brexit will cost us a fortune in terms of legal and admin fees etc. and that's before we get to any other potential impact on the UK economy.

We are a wealthy country, but our government is choosing not to invest in our NHS service, which benefits every single person living in the UK, while forging ahead with an expensive administrative exercise because 'the people have spoken'. I would genuinely like to know what Brexit voters think of this.

Actually, I do agree that the NHS should not have been dragged into Brexit, but I do think it is a little ironic that the actual effect of Brexit is likely to be the opposite of more funding for the NHS.

There is a longer term problem in terms of funding for the NHS, Brexit aside, with an ageing population and ever-more-expensive treatments available which I think unfortunately will lead to a need for prioritisation of care (in fact we are there already but no-one has the honesty to say so). I suspect that the idea of universal free healthcare for all ailments will fall away over time as it will prove to be impossible to maintain.

The goal however, should be be maintain as much funding for the NHS to get the best universal free service we can afford. For that, we need a strong economy as well as the desire to prioritise healthcare. I really hope that people who value the NHS bear that in mind.

Cross post chocolate. I guess Remain had more of the same to offer which you found unattractive. Unfortunately, I think what Leave had to offer, namely reduced revenues leading to cuts, was worse.

The one good thing that has come from this mess could be a change in our industrial strategy to give more voice to employees. Ideally I'd like that to be combined with public investment in industries in which we are strong - such as creative industries and science (medical and engineering) to make a more balanced economy. I live in hope!

I fully agree that this should never have been a Brexit issue - the setting up of the NHS was in 1947, long before the forerunner organisations which became the EU were thought of.

I would like to see a proper debate as to what and how we can afford to fund a health service and look to countries like Germany, New Zealand and others to see how they do it, rather than this headlong rush to ape the USA.

"The NHS has nothing to do with Brexit".

www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/brexit-and-nhs

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36664094

www.itv.com/news/2016-07-05/some-eu-doctors-not-applying-for-posts-in-the-uk-since-brexit-vote/

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/brexit-nhs-drug-prices-medicine-patients-effects-what-will-happen-a7117056.html

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/25/nhs-needs-eu-employees-to-avoid-collapse-says-thinktank

"What does it matter if it's privatised as long as it remains free at the point of use."

"I am prepared to pay to use the NHS..."

Don't these two statements contradict each other?

What does it matter if it's privatised as long as it remains free at the point of use.
I assume you've seen the news today? A&E, SCBU, Paediatrics and Obstretrics units closing down across the country, and people told that they will have to travel up to 50 miles to access these acute and emergency services. The sites that they are being withdrawn from are set to be turned into profitable facilities for day cases. Private providers love that kind of thing but they do not want to touch risky, expensive, emergency services with a barge pole. So, you'll be left to travel for an hour with your heart attack, post-partum haemorrage, or whatever, because healthcare trusts want everything centralised within one hospital serving half the bloody county. And that's assuming that an ambulance can even be found given that they are struggling right now, before all these one-hour emergency transfers become necessary.

Swedish, they don't contradict each other. I am happy to pay more for prescriptions , to pay board and lodging in hospital (why should the meals be free?), to buy some medicines over the counter, and to pay targeted tax increases.

OK then tell me the cost of an NHS bed overnight?

So you know that right? Before claiming you'll pay for it?

You think meals shouldn't be free? Oh aye cause people.check in to get one and bespoke catering is cheaper.

Drivel.

Small, why should I know the cost of an NHS bed? I imagine the cost varies depending on the hospital but I should be possible to calculate. The cost of meals is known because they have set budgets.
You are being ridiculous to suggest that people would be admitted to hospital for the meals, but your ridiculousness is no reason for not charging when people are in patients.

What on earth is bespoke catering?

Tryingtosaveup I think a lot of NHS workers are against privatisation because of their final salary pensions and their pay automatic rise up pay scales err no. It's because paying for any treatment will be ridiculously expensive, most people won't be able to afford it. I work for both NHS and privately, for a private ultrasound it can cost between £150-200 pound. Just for one test, using the NHS equipment in lunch break or after hours. This is for a sonographer not a consultant radiologist which would cost even more. How would the average person afford just one diagnostic test? An X-ray can cost near £100..
My DM worked for the NHS, her department was sold off to a private company based over 80 miles away. People requiring that service now have to travel to another county as its no longer provided in our hospital and area.
Staff in the NHS have compassion for patients and the knowledge that the majority of general public will not be able to afford healthcare if there is no longer an NHS. (Yes I know private staff have compassion too but the majority have already jumped ship)

The days after the Brexit vote we were told which departments and study's would be lost due to the withdrawal of EU funding.

I asked you the cost because you said you were willing to pay it. But as you have no idea it undermines your argument.

Also why should people get free meals? Well because thy are sick and shouldn't be worrying about being able to afford to eat?

Finally, before I hit the beach again, I just loved the smear on NHS workers regarding their pensions. "Final salary" doesn't exist anymore btw, for anyone not retiring in ten years from 2010, shows how much you know about it, or were you just doing the right winger thing and lifting a phrase from the daily mail?

Really, tell you what to save money why don't we just euthenise all right wingers, your lack of humanity shows that you are just a waste of good blood and organs anyway.

It sounds like some jealously there. Not only does a 'final salary' pension not exist for newer and younger employees but many people are deluded as to how much it was. A person taking home a salary of £30 K a year, did not get a pension of £30K: it depended on how many years contributions they had made, but it could easily be in the region of £4000. But we are now all in a race to the bottom as far as the average worker is concerned.

This whole topic makes me furious. A wealthy man, Cameron, called a Referendum, because he hadn't got the guts to stand up to a clique of wealthy men in his party. Another wealthy man, Johnson, happily posed against the side of a red bus promising £350 million a week for the NHS, knowing full well that this was a blatant lie. In this campaign, he was aided by another wealthy man, Farage.

It won't matter two hoots to any of these, who have easily got the money to pay for private treatment, but it will matter to many of us.

It really makes me angry, the NHS was born out of the idealism of the war time generation, who had seen the privations that so many suffered in the 1930s, saw the horrors of war, and wanted to build a better society. This is now all being thrown away because of a few selfish, wealthy people.

But instead of directing their anger against these people, some posters would prefer to project their jealous remarks against a group of dedicated hard working people who at one time would know they would get decent pensions.

I said:
I think the blame will be passed squarely back to the Remain camp. "It's their fault we haven't invoked Art. 50 yet, so it's their fault that no money is available for the NHS".

Didn't take long for someone to blame Remain:
There is no extra EU money for the NHS because we are still in the EU.
You may not have noticed but we haven't left yet and we are still paying them.

Outside of the EU there is no extra money for the NHS, our entire net contribution is wiped out of the tax take by 0.6 reduction in economic growth.

The NHS cuts are tory domestic policy, attack, underfund, people get angry then hand over to private capital.

There was never any extra money for the NHS. It was a blatant lie which if you fell for I just feel sorry for you.

Cluck Cluck turkeys Christmas is coming.

The NHS has nothing to do with Brexit. Tryingtosaveup

Bollocks. The Leave campaign could have put anything on the side of that bus. They could have suggested spending £350 million a week on transport or education or tax breaks or unicorns, but they didn't. They deliberately used the NHS because they know how dear to the nation's heart it is. They were the ones who made the connection between Brexit and the NHS and many voters fell for it and voted accordingly.

Peregina, I am not blaming remain
I am making the point that you can hardly expect the money we give to the EU to be diverted to the NHS when we are still paying it.
And I would take out private medical insurance so I would not be concerned about price. My insurance company might though.
I accept that newer members of the NHS do not have final salary pensions, but many still do, and these pensions are unheard of in the private sector

Pensions like that are not "unheard" of in the private sector, they may be in your line of work but I know a good few people who have retired with exceptionally good pension terms from big business.

The majority of pensions for NHS workers btw, are in surplus, and they are contributory, they aren;t " free". Currently new members pay in 10% or so of their salary.

Green eyed monster politics from you there, it does you no favours.

You would take out insurance? Fine. What happens when the insurance company doesn't pay out, or if you can't get any because you have an underlying condition?

What happens to those who can't afford health care ?

DId you know that the US spends more in % terms in GDP and per capita on health, but with a private system has worse health outcomes than that of the UK?

I am making the point that you can hardly expect the money we give to the EU to be diverted to the NHS when we are still paying it.

I wouldn't hold your breathe, if I were you - any money not going to the EU will be swallowed up in lawyers and consultants fees, and a few crumbs might go its way.

Also as pointed out, a 0.6% fall in growth wipes it from the tax take completely..

So with the forthcoming recession and slow growth beyond that we're never going to get it.

I have (or rather will have ) good final salary pensions from the two private sector companies I worked for. They're not unheard of - although admittedly, due to various governments' but especially Gordon Brown's raids on their "surpluses" and the pensions holidays they took in the "good" years (ignoring the maxim that "stocks can go done as well as up ), they are now closed to new employees.

TM was very clear that the cost of Brexit would be absorbed by cuts to public services and not tax increases. Even prior to the referendum, UK Plc was not looking great financially.

After bleeding the NHS, next in line will be education. Even without economic downfall, that money will be needed to boost defence and border control ASAP if Brexit ever happens.

I am expecting the Autumn budget to be a mega benefits slash including major crackdown on public sector pensions and lifting of the state pension triple-lock.

She may be committed to delivering Brexit to "the people", but she will also ensure they pay for it. And it will hurt a lot of people.

and lifting of the state pension triple-lock.
I think she could get away with this if it's only a double-lock and takes out the provision about inflation, which is at present historically low.

An obvious change would be to make the Christmas Bonus and Winter fuel allowance taxable, so the genuinely poor pensioners would get it being below the tax threshold.