Not my circus, not my monkeys is not good enough- a thread for those who actually want answers

[Bearbehind]

I was going to give this up as a bad job but given the post on the last Leave thread that's nearly full saying that 'any woman with half a brain voted to leave' I felt the discussion needs to go on.

[larrygrylls]

Bear,

What are you actually after? You are saying you want to find out what the leavers want, as if this will change your absolutist view. It won't. Even if someone posted the most brilliantly argued and referenced post, you would look for reasons to disagree, rather than change your view.

And ne'er the train shall meet....

[larrygrylls]

Twain

[Bearbehind]

even if someone posted the most brilliantly argued and referenced post, you would look for reasons to disagree, rather than change your view.

larry, despite your protestations, if it were 'brilliantly argued' I wouldn't disagree.

Sadly, the chances of that happening appear to be slim to none but it's worth a try.

I do get frustrated with leavers who spout nonsense like that though larry

All I, and many others, want is to be able to see the bright future Leavers see.

Unfortunately no one has been able to 'brilliantly argue' anything for Leave so the future is looking more than a little bleak.

[larrygrylls]

Sorry, but I don't buy it! All you want to see are arguments that you can make yourself feel good by refuting.

Many people have given a variety of positive scenarios but you prefer to dwell on the worst that might happen.

You want people to give you a definite future, which is clearly impossible.

[smallfox2002]

But I think Larry, people would like to know what people THOUGHT they were voting for and why.

Many of the posters here who have backed leaving seem unable to trot out any more than the slogans that the campaign used.

In fact so much so that I got accused of being over invested because I had "facts" to hand, which when arguing economics of course I would !

[Bearbehind]

larry the 'positive scenarios' have been little more than 'in the future we'll all have a pet unicorn'

If you can do better then fill your boots.

If not you're just perpetuating the belief that you and your fellow Leavers are somewhat deluded.

[larrygrylls]

Small fox,

The thing is that you are over invested! Not because you are knowledgeable, which you clearly are, but because you are prepared to spend 10s, if not 100s, of hours on a PARENTING forum arguing over a referendum that has already happened.

Why not try to go into politics and actually influence the future? There is a lot to still be decided but it won't happen on MN!

[LoveInTokyo]

smallfox, those campaign slogans were very effective. Closest thing I've seen to actual, genuine brainwashing.

After the vote, my (normally quite intelligent) aunt told me she was "delighted that we are going to take back control from a bunch of faceless people - and I am being polite here - that I don't even know their names or what they stand for."

Until now I've never witnessed a political campaign like that where members of the public were literally repeating these campaign soundbites parrot-fashion, but I find it quite scary.

[larrygrylls]

I wasn't a leaver (I have consistently said this). I was a reluctant remainer but I can understand and accept why many wanted to leave.

[Bearbehind]

but I can understand and accept why many wanted to leave.

Try explaining that to those of us who clearly don't get it then larry

[larrygrylls]

Bear,

A bit like the reasons the remainers give why the EU can be sustained, unlike any previous free trade zone ever, without full currency and tax Union.

Too many vested interests, too big to fail...and the unicorns will continue to make the rainbows in the sky.

[Bearbehind]

lovein I agree.

I recall starting a thread in referendum week about the use of the phrase take back control

It was outright brain washing, I'm just surprised so many fell for it.

[Bearbehind]

Eh, that post makes no sense larry

[LoveInTokyo]

larry, you've identified some pretty valid concerns about the EU. But I don't think those things were what won the vote for leave.

If anything, those concerns are more what I would expect to hear from a "reluctant remainer". Or even someone like me, who definitely wanted to remain but can still appreciate the problems in the EU.

I think the vast majority voted due to concerns about immigration and the mistaken belief that we send huge amounts of money to the EU every week which we do not get back, and which can now be spent on things like the NHS. Whatever solution we end up with, I don't think it is going to please very many people, and a lot of leave voters will no doubt end up feeling betrayed by the outcome.

[larrygrylls]

Bear,

Maked perfect sense to me, thanks. What particular element within it is causing you difficulty? Maybe I can help.

[LoveInTokyo]

Bear - and across the pond we have people chanting "Make America Great Again!"

It's the same thing. I feel like we're witnessing history in the making.

[Bearbehind]

The whole post.

You can't attempt to justify a Leave vote by staying it's the opposite of Remain?

[smallfox2002]

Its rather easy to dash of a message from your mobile larry, I have a full and eventful life outside ( hello from a terrace on the Adriactic btw).

Your comment about free trade unions, it applies more to currency unions that don't have both fiscal and monetary policy making powers ( which is the eurozone flaw), free trade unions are abundant all over the world and operate smoothly.

[53rdAndBird]

I would love to see a positive scenario that actually deals with the practical questions about how it's going to work. What's going to happen with the Good Friday Agreement? How are we going to get a "UK approach" when Scotland's actively pursuing options to remain? How are we going to afford the massive, expensive workload of actually detangling ourselves from the EU? How are we going to make sure that people who voted Leave got what they thought they were voting for? How are we going to respect the interests and wishes of those who didn't vote Leave? What kind of say is the country as a whole going to get on whatever deal the government settles on?

People keep saying things like "well that's the politicians' job to decide, not ours" or "nobody can see into the future." But surely if we can't even IMAGINE a Brexit that answers these questions, we're all screwed?

"We voted to jump out of this plane."
"Ok. Where are the parachutes? Are we jumping over water, will we need life jackets? Do we even have parachutes and life jackets?"
"Oh who cares about the detail, I'm sure it'll work itself out on the way down. WHEEEEEE!"

[GloriaGaynor]

I would love to have seen a 'brilliantly argued and referenced post' for leave. It would make me feel so much better. But sadly I never have.

[larrygrylls]

'Your comment about free trade unions, it applies more to currency unions that don't have both fiscal and monetary policy making powers ( which is the eurozone flaw), free trade unions are abundant all over the world and operate smoothly.'

Not with free movement of people. For example?

[LoveInTokyo]

53rdAndBird, the trouble is, we're not going to get a say on whatever deal the government settles on.

The legal position isn't entirely clear, but the general consensus of opinion seems to be that once Article 50 has been triggered, there's no going back. So if we get to the end of the two year negotiating period and we don't have a good deal sorted, and the other member states won't agree to extend the negotiating period, that's it, we're out. With no arrangements for the future.

That's why the people demanding that Theresa May triggers Article 50 immediately should be careful what they wish for. Luckily I think she has more sense than that.

[smallfox2002]

Freedom of movement has added more to the UK than it has taken out. It's well established that immigration has been the whipping post for all of the nation's ills, and that some areas that have had immigration haven't had corresponding funding in relation to their increased tax take, but freedom of.movement haa generally been a force for good.

We in the UK have seen it differently I feel because of an island mentality and seeing ourselves as separate. In fact I think that's been our whole problem with the EU our joining came at the same time as the loss of empire and declining world influence, but these things were not always apparent to the people.

[larrygrylls]

'Freedom of movement has added more to the UK than it has taken out.'

Maybe but this is not axiomatic, except for fervent remainers. Firstly, you need to define what 'added' means. Secondly, you need to look at all the effects, including suppression of pay. Thirdly, it should not be compared to no immigration (which is easy) but to controlled immigration on a points system. We may have been far more successful with the latter.

[Peregrina]

I think if we'd either lost our Empire a bit sooner, or delayed joining the EEC/EU then we might have seen just how dependent we had been upon the Empire, and how we really needed to find an alternative.

I don't think that observation helps us very much now, except IMO, that those politicians who think we will revitalise trade with the (white) Commonwealth are not going to get the results they hope for.