Not my circus, not my monkeys is not good enough- a thread for those who actually want answers

[Bearbehind]

I was going to give this up as a bad job but given the post on the last Leave thread that's nearly full saying that 'any woman with half a brain voted to leave' I felt the discussion needs to go on.

[caroldecker]

Misti
If they could do so they already would have. Italy has already tried and has a claim in process.
Apple Ireland does not just route EU sales through the Irish company, but many others. Apple will pay tax in each country is has a presence in, so there will be Apple tax paid in the UK. the argument is how is profit allocated to each territory.
Apple argue that they make a lot of profit from their IP, which is owned by whichever company it chooses. This allows it to book very low profits in the countries it makes sales and make a lot of profit in ow tax countries. This is all perfectly legal and internationally agreed in the OECD transfer pricing guidelines.
The UK has a low rate of corporate tax (10%) for some patents held, so Apple may be able to benefit from this.
NB EU countries cannot make different corporation tax rules for multi-nationals inside and outside the EU.

[Mistigri]

No duty on Apple products from outside the EU to inside, so why would they not locate in UK - just as good as any other European country.

Weird comment, unless Apple products are all physically imported to Ireland right now before being shipped to their final destination.

You surely wouldn't import Apple products into the UK from China, passing through one set of customs procedures, then reexport to EU markets, necessitating a second customs procedure (post brexit).

It seems likely that if Apple were to relocate to a post brexit UK that EU countries would have a close look at their tax codes to prevent EU sales made through local sales offices from being booked in the UK.

[Peregrina]

Speaking English is not really a joke, because it's become the language of business, so for a lot of other nations, it's one of the things we have to offer.

Whether that in itself is enough to offer to compensate for the lack of access to the single market, remains to be seen.

[smallfox2002]

They may choose to come out altogether true.

I dont think we should be actively saying that they should come here though. Definitely cost more to have than they add to the economy.

[caroldecker]

No duty on Apple products from outside the EU to inside, so why would they not locate in UK - just as good as any other European country.

[Corcory]

Sorry should have put a ! at the end of my statement. I was being ironic.
I worked in the pharmaceutical industry and many people I know would go and work in the company's offices in the Netherlands where all the business was done in English.

[Kaija]

Has everyone forgotten that most foreign investment in the UK is here chiefly because of access to the single market?

[Namehanger]

Have you been to Europe recently?

My husband works in IT and has travelled all over the world and everyone speaks English in IT companies. He worked in Paris for a year with rudimentary French.

[smallfox2002]

Like that makes a difference?

Google can hire who they like, also it won't work out as a better rate if there are costs of EU operation from outside of the EU.

Do you think they will locate their EU base outside of the EU?

[Corcory]

We have a better rate of corporation tax and we speak English.

[smallfox2002]

So why would Apple come here otherwise?

Also why would they bother when this isn't going to be a base for their EU operations? Its going to be far easier to locate somewhere in the EU and run the UK operation from there, than it will to do otherwise.

Deluded.

[Corcory]

Of course they would welcome Apple. That doesn't mean they are going to give them some ridiculous tax break.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

I see the right wing press are talking up Apple coming to UK post Brexit.

So sovereignty and "taking back control" means prostituting oneself to elite corporations that would prefer to pay as little tax as possible.

[smallfox2002]

What you mean our government which has said it would welcome Apple?

Ha!

[Corcory]

Small - Apple and it's tax dealings has nothing to do with the UK. I don't expect anyone in our Government would advocate such a situation. I think it's you that's talking drivel.

[smallfox2002]

Sorry Carol, doesn't matter. You benefit from the environment that you are in , if it enables you to earn highly you should contribute accordingly.

Just look at Apple 0.005 % corporation tax in Ireland, yeah so Apple needs lots of investment from the government to work there, but doesn't pay anything back?

Do you know what 0.005% of 11bn is? £55 million. Now did Apple benefit far more than £55m in the years its been in Ireland? Damm right.

Contribute what you fucking owe.

Sick and tired of this deity worship of "wealthy creators" its drivel.

[caroldecker]

smallfox UK tax law was very different when income taxes were much higher. There was much less tax on benefits in kind, so many people who now earn a lot, would have had significant BIK instead. I know many people who never really changed the amount they took out of their companies, but took it as cash instead of cars or travel.

[smallfox2002]

Not as many as were predicted at first, its seems that living in Paris, having your house in Loire, is more appealing that living full time somewhere else, about 13 % of HNWIs have left.

The thing is that bugs me massively about this debate is that many of the problems the nations faces are due to this adherence to the idea that wealth trickles down. Propety prices, rising rents, public service underfunding etc can almost all in some ways be blamed on this policy.

Take for example the much celebrated HNWI diaspora to London. We celebrate this because it shows how successful London is, without acknowledging the fact that we actually get very little net benefit of this. They avoid paying taxes through non-dom status, they cause house prices to rise by buying up the most desirable properties, massively inflating the prices and causing the ripple out effect, so that areas that used to be affordable like say Queens Park suddenly become out of reach but all for the top 10 %, this of course then ripples out and means that very many workers above even the London average can't afford to get on the ladder.

Many of the purchasing taxes are avoided too, for example VAT can be reclaimed or written off against depreciation. Yet they benefit massively from living in this society.

[Dapplegrey2]

Smallfox - thank you for answering.
What you say makes sense, but re. we will take the ball home - am I right in saying a lot of well off French people have moved away from France because of Hollande's high taxes?

[smallfox2002]

Its a different thing isn't that the wealthiest should be taxed more heavily and a brain drain.

Much of the brain drain will be due to lack of opportunity, better opportunities available especially from those of the scientific community, who aren't that well paid. There will also be a brain drain if we don't have full access to the EU market, banks will change the scale of their operations here and their workers will move to where the market is.

My points regarding the wealthiest being taxed more heavily is that they benefit more from the society they live in, essentially they are facilitated to earn that money by money spent by the government, yet don't contribute to a sufficient level.

The "we will take our ball home" threat is an empty one, income taxes on the wealthiest have been higher for the majority of the latter half of the 20th century and people didn't leave.

[Dapplegrey2]

Smallfox - there has been comment on the referendum threads saying that Brexit will result in a brain drain of the brightest and best and most successful seeking opportunities elsewhere in the world which you have not disagreed with.
Am I right in saying that you think the rich should be taxed much more heavily?
If this happens then that will also result in successful people leaving. Does that concern you, or does the thought of the rich being given their just deserts make up for it?

[Peregrina]

With enough political pressure the bedroom tax might be scrapped.

[Peregrina]

I have seen both Russian and American propaganda about the war. Both countries claim that they won virtually single handedly. Funnily enough, we were brought up to believe that it was the British who won almost by their own efforts.

Like when she tells people he served in Burma during the war but in fact was in Malaya in 1958 doing national service. Gosh, I have heard of boy soldiers in places like former Yugoslavia in WW2 being pressed into service as young as twelve. But toddler or infant soldiers?

[ToxicLadybird]

smallfox you are seriously mistaken. My dad won the war and will be 'turning in his grave at what the country's become'. He was born in 1940 and came to the UK in 1955 as a migrant from another EU country, but this is apparently just semantics. Like when she tells people he served in Burma during the war but in fact was in Malaya in 1958 doing national service. But who needs facts eh?

[ToxicLadybird]

She still thinks she's going to get all the others too.