A thousand lawyers send letter to Cameron over EU Referendum

[BrexitThunderbolt]

It starts:
TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ALL MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

9 July 2016

Dear Prime Minister and Members of Parliament

Re: Brexit

We are all individual members of the Bars of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We are writing to propose a way forward which reconciles the legal, constitutional and political issues which arise following the Brexit referendum.

The result of the referendum must be acknowledged. Our legal opinion is that the referendum is advisory.

The European Referendum Act does not make it legally binding. We believe that in order to trigger Article 50, there must first be primary legislation. It is of the utmost importance that the legislative process is informed by an objective understanding as to the benefits, costs and risks of triggering Article 50.

link to the whole letter here

I am particularly pleased to see this included in their reasons for writing as they do:
There is evidence that the referendum result was influenced by misrepresentations of fact and promises that could not be delivered.

Since the result was only narrowly in favour of Brexit, it cannot be discounted that the misrepresentations and promises were a decisive or contributory factor in the result.

The last time we came back into France (French registered car) from Spain we were checked as well.

If you get a flight out of Norway, which is in the Schengen area, people from non-Schengen countries have to go through passport control. Those from Schengen countries are sent off in a different direction, where I assume they don't need to show any form of ID.

Having said that, because of the refugee crisis, some countries are introducing border checks.

Ah that is interesting. When my son came from Spain, his passport was checked at Malaga but not when he landed in France. At Ouistreham and Dieppe (the ports I use the most), everyone is checked on arrival in France and nobody is waved through. So it seems to me that you can have border checks if you want them?
Clearly impossible on borders like Holland / Belgium, but entirely possible when you are an island.
You have to carry your passport / identity card at all times here in France and Spanish hotels always photocopy your passport, so plenty of checks in place elsewhere.

Obviously you can't go into the UK without passing through border control at the moment

It's being suggested that we'd lose the Schengen opt-out as a condition of a free trade agreement with the EU, i.e. that there would be no regular border controls between the UK and the rest of the EU.

Somehow i can't imagine that ever being accepted as a condition of us leaving the EU.

Grandad So why do the French check everyone (EU) or not when you come in at Ouistreham and Dieppe? I know the French have waved people through in Dover in the past, but we have been checked the last few times. There has to be a permanent border at entry points, what about all the non-Europeans?
Our Australian friends are checked on arrival, then they can pass through the EU Schengen area borders.

The UK isn't currently part of the Schengen area so at the moment everything's checked if you enter France from the UK or vice versa.

It's being suggested that we'd have to join the Schengen area as a condition of keeping access to the single market and those checks would be dropped.

I can't see it happening.

Checked on arrival here in France, that is.

I think each country still has the right to check everyone though. In practice they mostly wave people through, but there was a heavy presence on the Spanish - French border last time we crossed.

Schengen hasn't abolished passport checks at borders - it abolishes visas and the right to check the traveller's reason for travel - the sort of questions that you get asked when visiting the US or Australia. So without the UK's Schengen opt-out, it will be effectively impossible to stop free movement of EU citizens into the UK. It is inconceivable that the UK would stop EU citizens from travelling for tourism purposes. Without the Schengen opt-out, anyone intending to work here can simply lie.

Schengen hasn't abolished passport checks at borders

Well yes, it has, if you mean internal borders between member states. That's the point of it. The fact that they've been reintroduced in various places is another matter, and that's allowed for in the regulations 'where there is a serious threat to public policy or internal security'.

Well yes, it has, if you mean internal borders between member states

No, I mean passport checks. PPs have been saying that they have their passports checked at EU borders, so don't know what difference being part of Schengen will make. Schengen is not about abolishing passport checks.

Thanks shiny that makes sense. So with Schengen in place nobody from the EU could be asked why they were coming into Britain, unless there was a suspected security threat.
Of course in France they wouldn't be able to work or access health care without the correct papers and registration, so I guess a lot of it comes back to domestic procedures.

I think the Paris attacks changed things somewhat, because of the way the attackers were free to move from Belgium to France. But the definition of Schengen is passport-free travel across the Schengen bloc. They can re-instate border checks for reasons of National Security though.

I'm confused about what you're saying.

Schengen is about abolishing passport checks at borders between member states. The fact that some countries have reintroduced them because of the refugee and/or security situation is irrelevant. The idea is (or was) that entry checks into the Schengen area from outside are more stringent than they were, while border controls and passport checks within Schengen are eliminated.

Under normal circumstances the Schengen rules don't even allow lower speed limits at border crossings, never mind passport checks.

Sorry, that was to shiny.

the definition of Schengen is passport-free travel

Not correct. Travellers still have to carry passports (or equivalent ID). Schengen states must permit obstacle-free travel between states and, in practice, this often means no passport check. But states are still permitted to check passports for security reasons (such as ensuring the traveller is really an EU citizen) provided the free travel of citizens is not impeded by the process.

I think we're basically saying the same thing, shiny. I'm not suggesting people don't carry their passports - just that they're not checked at borders between Schengen countries.

I was getting it from Here

The Schengen Agreement abolished many of the EU's internal borders, enabling passport-free movement across most of the bloc.

Just to clarify though - I agree with everyone saying that the loss of the UK Schengen opt-out will make border control much harder.

... and the opt out is much more valuable to the UK, with only one small land border between us and the EU (ROI/NI) than it is to mainland Europe where - even when controls were in place - it was impossible to police thousands of miles of land borders.

Has anyone found the list of lawyers yet?

Why do you want it?

There are different legal views on whether Parliament (UK) needs to approve Brexit amongst lawyers. I don't agree Parliament has to and I am a lawyer. However it would be sensible to have Parliamentary approval. May will proceedwith Brexit. Even if the threatened Mishcon's judicial review action goes ahead it will be heard swiftly and is likely to find there is no need for Parliamentary approval but if I were May I would get Parliament to agree once it is clear what path (EEA - Norway or Swiss route or whatever is proposed). I also think Parliament would approve it as that was the way the referendum went and we remainers just have to accept it.

Separately I don't agree the Scottish Parliament has to agree.

Given that a lot of Leave voters had no idea that the EEA model was even a thing, I think there will be difficulty getting that accepted in the country.

The leave voters I've encountered who are aware of it recognise that it's a bum deal.

I don't know how it will fare in Parliament. But the idea that Parliament must slavishly follow the mob is bizarre.

As you one of "the mob" Manon? Or are only leavers a "mob"?

The more I think of it, the more misguided I think this letter is