Can someone explain the free movement thing to me, please?

[knottedwood]

I'm a Remainer, I've done well out of the EU, freedom of movement etc. has worked for me.
BUT it's clear that
a) it has genuinely undermined some people's livelihoods; and/or
b) it is a convenient thing for other people to blame for wider dissatisfaction/ alienation

Whatever anyone thinks about the rights or wrongs of immigration, it's been a massively hot political potato for ages.

Given this, and (particularly) given the strength of feeling that's been made unignorable by the referendum result, why doesn't Britain, temporarily, put restrictions on the movement of people in/out of Britain?

My (untutored) reading of relevant bit of EU stuff on Wikipedia (great source, I know) suggests that this WOULD be possible:

• it says that "subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health" people are allowed to
• accept offers of employment, be employed, and having BEEN employed, remain in other member states.

So:
a) why can't a temporary suspension 'on the grounds of public policy' be brought in?
b) why can't free movement - with a job offer - be allowed, but not otherwise.

So, to get back on topic

• our negotiating position is not strong
• free movement is a non-negotiable aspect of access to the single market

It's possible that the EU may look again at what "free movement" means, in order to link it more closely to the freedom to move for work. But this is not necessarily in the UK's favour. The vast majority of the UK's EU immigrant population are in work. This is not true of Britons in the EU: I'd estimate that perhaps half (the figure may be less) of Britons living in the EU are in work.

I hope there isn't a general mood of "we won't get anything, we're in a weak position" once the negotiating starts in earnest. Confidence is what our country needs, because if we expect only a weak deal that's not a good starting point at all.

A4 document - but we are, aren't we. The EU has SO much politically at stake in standing firm. The rewards/penalties of negotiating are utterly skewed (against us).

Again, I think that there's great appetite within the EU to think again about what freedom of movement means - it's not working, for different reasons, for lots of powerful actors. Brexit has made those discussions so much harder.

Mistigri: hadn't thought about your point about Britons emigrating mostly for not-work purposes. Totally right.

A4 a negotiating party that goes into talks with unrealistic expectations is going to have rings run round them.

The problem for the UK is that

• the UK has to make the first move, which puts it in a weak position because at that point the clock is ticking. It cannot afford to get to the 2 year limit without either a deal, or a good working relationship that enables the time limit to be extended

• it is negotiating with 27 countries all of which will have their own agenda, and all of whom have a veto

• it is negotiating with a partner that can call on extensive negotiation skills and experience; the UK cannot.

• it is the smaller partner in terms of the size of the market, which makes it a deal-taker not a deal-maker

• there are political reasons to cut a deal that looks tough but fair, pour encourager les autres

I'm not saying that a deal is impossible, but that the room for manoeuvre is slim and people making silly promises (free movement for us but not for them! No free movement but single market access!) are going to end up looking like the liars they are.

BUT it's clear that a) it has genuinely undermined some people's livelihoods

No what happened was poor investment by Tories and Nu-Labour and unscrupulous employers, land-lords, our large 'grey economy' compared to europe.

BreakingDad - fair point. There was lots of other domestic stuff going on. But is it really wrong to say that some people, in some sectors, have found that wages have been greatly depressed by the availability of a seemingly endless well-trained eager-to-work Eastern European workforce? I'm not disputing the domestic stuff (that was meant to be included in my (b))!

IMO if the EU are steadily making it increasingly difficult to escape, it's vital we get out now.

The means of "escape" are set out in the Lisbon treaty. Just needs the UK to invoke article 50, something the EU is apparently keen for us to do ASAP. It really is that simple: send the letter and two years later, you're free.

But is it really wrong to say that some people, in some sectors, have found that wages have been greatly depressed by the availability of a seemingly endless well-trained eager-to-work Eastern European workforce?

It is only wrong to infer it is the immigrants fault, its the employers driving down wages, its employers only advertising in europe, etc. its employers not taking on national apprentices for decades etc etc

The evidence that it's EU immigrants holding wages down is rather slender though.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but that low wages are a far more complex problem than simple a supply of labour issue.

BreakingDad: yes. agreed.
I think that it's the E European countries that get a bad deal. They bear all their young people's training/health costs (kids are ONLY a drain on a country, of course) - and then as soon as they can, a huge proportion of them emigrate, taking all that investment, all those skills, all that life with them...

Knotted wood, the hope in some way that some money does go back to their own countries and improves them.

Though this makes me think is there a essentially a fixed amount of money/etc in the world? so for the ee countries to develop it will mean we will lose something in western europe. Perhaps that's the problem that money is coming from the low skilled in the west? (The rich will do ok whatever)

I've asked before on this matter, and no-one has an answer.

IF you restrict/suspend whatever Free movement of people re the EU, HOW is that possible in practice. NI is part of the UK, Ireland is part of the EU. How are you going to stop free movement of people on that border, when anyone could walk into the UK from EU as they like?

No-one seems to have even a vague idea.

user1467101855

Leave are going to build a wall I think..........and also we would need the navy patrolling the waters as well, to stop the muslim invasion from Turkey from what they have lead me to believe...

(I'm a remainer)

Good for Irish builders then, but pretty bad for peace in Northern Ireland (which will suffer anyway as the Good Friday Agreement hinges on EU laws etc which could all disappear once you're out, and then what?)

I don't think we can keep people out, user, it's more that we can make it impossible for them to work legally if they come in...

Then you have to completely re-write all the cross border agreements and every piece of legislation concerning Ireland/NI. Big problem right there.

FoM is one of 4 basic freedoms of EU. It's the free movement of workers. You xsn freely move between member states to take up a job or seek a job. If seeking a job you must have reasonable chance of getting one - some argue a 6 month limit on job seeking. You can also move freely to study or if of independent means. As sn EU citizen you also have a right to just live elsewhere but only for 3 months. Once you've been using your mobility rights for 5 years (without significant breaks) you get to be a permanent resident - periods of study don't count towards the 5 years.

To make this work you get increasingly complex rules on benefit entitlement. Things like accessing pensions, maternity pay and other statutory leave. The difficulties is getting the different benefits systems to work in a way that's equal to all EU nationals as discrimination between nationals is not allowed. So this is what all the wrangling was about earlier this year.

Where EU nationals move about in the EU outside the scope of these rules you run into difficulties regarding what to do with them. Are they immigrants ie can you deport them and if so what do you go about multiple re entry seeing as they aren't subject to border controls. This has been a problem for groups happier to be homeless here than in their own state for example or someone jpbseeking but nit getting a job quickly. But for most EU nationals the system worked pretty well.

This arrangement snd ghetto rights under it remain in place until we legally leave the UK. At that point we should have an idea what will replace it. Many EU nationals are anxious because they won't have taken up British citizenship as it conferred few additional rights. So now they will be considering whether to do so to secure continuing leave to remain in the UK or whether to gamble on their rights remaining unaffected in future.

It's unlikely the EU will allow access to their markets without FoM being part of the deal.

the not ghetto obv

I fear that people will vote UKIP to avoid an EEA deal and you will get Farage going to the EU calling them all twats and we just end up defaulting to WTO with no proper agreements in place.

Many countrit's did use the public policy provisions to delay FoM for the accession state nationals in 2004. They argued a need to adjust their labour markets. That transition period is now over. At the time it was always argued that any labour market restrictions for new EU nationals would have to be temporary because free movement is the point of the EU.

I'm not sure the UK has any chance of success getting in partial controls on free movement of labour as it would be against the interests of the newer EU member states. There may be some more wiggle room on entitlements but it's so complicated I'm not sure how politicians could sell that to those who think we are stopping immigration and draw that so widely they include many folk who are third country nationals (non EU immigrants ) or indeed British

FoM is one of 4 basic freedoms of EU. It's the free movement of workers.

From what I understand, it used to be the freedom of movement of workers before 1992. After the Maastricht Treaty it became freedom of movement of people.

I fear that people will vote UKIP to avoid an EEA deal

Particularly if none of the main parties offer "leave" voters a plausible alternative.

, it's more that we can make it impossible for them to work legally if they come in...

How? Seriously? There are many visa-overstayers in the UK - some estimates put the number at over a million. Most of these will be working. People who want to work will find a way to do it.

A4 the free movement of people is just the additional 3 months leave as sn EU national to be in any EU ms. After that if does actually still operate v much as labour movement as described in my post. But you are right the name for it changes