eu citizens and the brexit vote

[xmasadsboohiss]

I've lived here for over twenty years and have worked and paid taxes and am in the process of raising a family. So I could almost be one of Mr Farage's 'ordinary, decent' people. Except my passport comes from an EU country so I guess that, in his eyes, that rules me out of that particular tranche of society.

I'm hurt on a personal level by the vote - talk of 'Getting our country back' is so upsetting. I for one was unaware that I or any of my fellow EU citizens had stolen it! I'm also troubled by the realisation that the country I have lived in for most of my adult life, and which I thought of as open, welcoming and progressive may not be so. Do I want to raise my children in a place that prides itself in looking inwards rather than outwards? Hmmm.

And then of course there are the practicalities. I'm an EU citizen and one of the implicit aims of the Leave campaign was to push British people at the top of the queue for jobs. So my job prospects are by definition impacted despite years of hard work and contribution to this country on my part.

Now I know there are many words of reassurance coming from politicians but frankly why should I believe any of it? This is new to everyone so anything can happen.

To me whether I am being unreasonable or not is neither here nor there. I'm sad and I'm worried.

[citroenpresse]

My teenage son is the only one in our (all-British) family that has a permanent residency card for the Netherlands which is valid for 5 years. We bought it because he needed to carry an identity document (Dutch thing) and I didn't want him to carry his passport around all the time. But when you talk of 'continued residence' EmilyAlice, is it related to this document no longer being an option? Is that not covered under the Vienna Convention?

[citroenpresse]

When people talk about a 'points-based' system related to immigration, presumably they are talking about 'points-based system for EU citizens'? There seems to be a huge amount of 'control' already over the conditions for migrants from non EEA areas or is that not the case? In the Netherlands (another EU country), there are all kinds of rules for knowledge migrants etc etc

[EmilyAlice]

There is apparently some doubt that the Vienna convention applies and France didn't sign it anyway!

[citroenpresse]

Thanks EmilyAlice. Sounds like lawyers are going to be the only beneficiaries of this mess (grrrrr) and the rest of us will have to sweat it out.

[EmilyAlice]

I don't, in my saner moments, think that we will be thrown out after eleven years of regular residence, but it's the middle of the night gut-churning irrational stuff that is the problem....

[xmasadsboohiss]

Yes in my saner moments I don't think I'll be deported either really. What concerns me are the unintended consequences of new legislation. For example a bill used to 'discourage' further migration from the EU might actually end up impacting on people already here. I think it's almost bound to happen in one way or another.

Thanks to everyone who has sympathised with how the vote is making us EUers feel. The strength of the feelings I have in the wake of this have surprised even me! [smile}

[xmasadsboohiss]

emoticons rookie moi!

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

The right to permanent residency is an EU right. If you have lived in another EU country for more than 5 years you can apply for permanent residency. There are no conditions

There are LOADS of conditions! It's an 80 odd page application form and that's not including all the supporting documents you need to send

For example, if you've been a student or self employed in the last 5 years you need to have had full health insurance in order to count those years

Where on earth are you getting "no conditions" from? Bloody LOADS of conditions!

[EmilyAlice]

Surely that only applies to EU citizens? Which we won't be.
My son has lived in Spain for over twenty years. He will take Spanish nationality because my DiL and GCs are Spanish. No dual nationality there. We may go for French, but then I think ho hum Marine le Pen. .

[WidowWadman]

If I hadn't already got UK citizenship I would less be worried about deportation than about losing recourse to public funds/whatever way the government (especially one under Ms May) can find to make remaining difficult/impossible for a EU migrant who loses their job, gets old, I'll etc.

I'm still stunned and occasionally break out in cold sweat when realising how a redundancy which I only just avoided could have scuppered my qualifying time (it doesn't matter how many years you have lived here, only years in which you exercised treaty rights count).

[PattyPenguin]

If anyone wants to look at the application form, it is here www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/505032/EEA_PR__03-16.pdf
all 85 pages of it.
The guidance notes are here
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/506058/EEA_PR__guide-to-supporting-documents_v1_3_2015-12-04_KP.pdf

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

People are hoping that if they get an EEA residence card now, they will be allowed to convert it to ILR once we leave, since they are more or less the same thing

[EmilyAlice]

I have always been told that you can't get a Carte de Séjour as an EU resident.
It isn't the same in every EU country.
Which is why there will need to be negotiations.

[GrouchyKiwi]

I'm trying not to be worried about it. British DH is doing that for me. I'm a Kiwi but have dual nationality with an EU country. I've been here nearly 10 years; have worked 5 of that and am now a SAHM with 3 small children.

DH is worried about the fact I'm no longer a taxpayer and what that would mean.

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

Grouchy are you applying for EEA(PR) while you can?

[FarAwayHills]

I agree OP it is a very odd feeling of no longer belonging or being welcome. I have never felt more foreign in all the 16 years I've lived here. I'm glad to have the support on here of others in similar situations. I can't talk to friends or work colleagues about it because they just dont get it and say 'oh don't be silly, they won't kick you out'

Funny how all the the posters on pre referendum threads who dismissed concerns regarding the rights EU nationals have disappeared.

[GrouchyKiwi]

Yes. It's a complicated document isn't it?!

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

Yup, they made it harder than it used to be in Jan 2015, ahead of the referendum, so anyone pre referendum who thought EU citizens would be looked after obv hadn't looked into it at all and were just talking hot air!

[EverythingWillBeFine]

In RL, I've found that a lot of peole just dismiss any fears that we would be sent home as 'they would enver do that'.
Or they have no idea at all.

I was talking to someone and explaining my worry about the UK being completely out of the EU. My stance is that, in that case, the logic would be to use the current rule on immigartion that applies to non EU cirizens.
Then I explained that if you don;t earn above £xx, then you are out, married and with children to a british citizen or not.
Answer: 'I had no idea it was THAT bad''
Because a lot of people have actually no idea of what the current immigration rules are....

Grouchy I agree about the Permanent Residence Card but I would look at what you would need to do to be able to stay as a kiwi. (incl all the stuff linked with being married to a birtish national)

[Cocoabutton]

,Everything, that is just not true, DD's stepmum is a non-EU citizen, she has never worked here and she has been here for over ten years. So it is not the case that if you don't earn xxx amount, you are out. XH earns little more than minimum wage. They are not well off.

[FarAwayHills]

Cocoa Did she perhaps apply before the rules changed?

[citroenpresse]

AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected I think you are confusing an EU right of residence (5 years etc) with what individual countries can control at a national level. In the UK, you get 80 pages, in the Netherlands, you don't. Because in the Netherlands, there are different 'identification' rules altogether.

[Cocoabutton]

I have no idea, I always wondered how she managed to stay, as xH was married to me at the time she came over but it is not my business really.
I guess I think if she is here after 12 years by virtue of marriage why would EU people not be? Though maybe not thinking this through - she must have applied to stay, right?

[AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected]

A lot of people who identify as their born citizenship actually have British passports, perhaps she does, and like many others just never describes herself as British?

EU citizens aren't entitled to citizenship through marraige to a Brit any more, not since December last year. Now they need to qualify through PR before they can apply to naturalize through marraige, in other words, qualify in their own right anyway.

[citroenpresse]

By the time anyone applies for a permanent right of residence in the Netherlands, there's a very very long 'paper' (i.e. electronic) trail. They already know you who are. My postal vote application for the referendum was turned down (thanks, Hackney Council), because I failed 'identification' criteria. I have never used my 'married' name except on a mortgage application in the UK. My passport is (and still is) my pre-married name. I couldn't find any documentation to support who I was because in the Netherlands, my ID is my passport. Obviously.