Is Brexit an English nationalist movement?

[Mistigri]

Interesting point of view here:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/18/england-eu-referendum-brexit

"When you strip away the rhetoric, Brexit is an English nationalist movement. If the Leave side wins the referendum, it will almost certainly be without a majority in either Scotland or Northern Ireland and perhaps without winning Wales either. The passion that animates it is English self-assertion. And the inexorable logic of Brexit is the logic of English nationalism: the birth of a new nation state bounded by the Channel and the Tweed."

Assuming that England votes for leave, but Scotland and N Ireland for remain, how would you feel about a potential break up of the UK?

I'm a remain voter who finds all kinds of nationalism distasteful, so I personally would greatly regret the break up of the UK if this should ever happen. However, I recognise that the more resonant Leave arguments - about democracy, about taking back control, about not having your future decided by distant politicians - are equally resonant at local level in Scotland and (for Catholics at least) in N Ireland.

"Why is it ok to be a Scottish nationalist, but English nationalists are basically portrayed as neo nazis?"

I think that's a question English Nationalists should be asking themselves, surely?

Winter that wasn't the intended interpretation - what I'm interested in is how "independent" do leave voters want England to be? Is your nationalism an English nationalism, or do you have an emotional attachment to the Union? Would you happily wave goodbye to an independent Scotland and, in the fullness of time (once demographics lead to a catholic majority) N Ireland, or would you shed a tear at the end of the Union?

Winter you have misunderstood me. I am not in anyway disagreeing with you. I too am a left leaning patriot. I was happy to see the word ^extreme* in the second set of definitions you provided, as it confines the NF, EDF, BF style patriotism to the unusual, abnormal not mainstream....

Bertrand thanks. I have no way of counteracting anything the right wing say or do when people like you respond like that - as in , when apparently normal people have entrenched views and don't deviate from them .

Would you happily wave goodbye to an independent Scotland? That's another of those odd double standards though. I would be as happy to wave goodbye to an independent Scotland as a Scottish person would be to wave goodby to an independent England.

How independent would any Scottish person like to see Scotland? Would they shed a tear at the end of the Union?

Why is one 'worse' than the other?

Who is saying that one is worse than the other?

Voting leave for reasons of self-determination and national democracy presupposes the existence of some sort of nationalist sentiment (in the broader sense, not the NF sense).

My question is simply whether that nationalist sentiment is attached primarily to England as a nation, or the UK as as a state.

Would/did you ask the same question of Scottish people during their referendum? Or did it only come to mind when applied to England? That is what I meant.

My question is simply whether that nationalist sentiment is attached primarily to England as a nation, or the UK as as a state.

OK... That is where it gets tricky as Bertrand might come back and tell me I need to join BF

I am me first
Scouse, then
English, then
UK, rarely
European, usually only when not being American or Australian..., often
Human

My nationalism is based on being English within the UK.

My nationalism tries to be as loud about being English as Welsh people are about being Welsh (also Scottish, Irish), without being called racist, etc, as per Bertrand's last post.

My nationalism is regularly dented when I am told that by wanting to be English I am perpetrating some sort of social faux pas and I should be ashamed.

Does that help?

So you identify primarily as English rather than British?

I don't see why the question would be any different for Scottish people. Clearly Scottish nationalists identify primarily as Scottish rather than British; this goes without saying and would be a rather dull question to pose.

However there is an interesting question as to whether leave voters identify primarily as English or as British, and if the latter, what they think a "split" leave vote (ie Scotland voting the other way) would mean for British nationalism.

That's why I asked... you do see being English differently from being Scottish... why does it go without saying for one and not the other? It is equally logical for both!

Your 'interesting question' is as interesting for any of the UK nationalities, surely?

So you identify primarily as English rather than British? Yes. Is that a bad thing? I identify as Scouse more than English, I am just 'me' before anything else.

Is that unusual? Is it only an 'English thing'? I would imagine a Glaswegian would be have much the same progression of 'belonging'.. and a Parisian... etc

I wonder whether some of it's because English Nationalsim seems "newer" than English, Welsh and Irish nationalism. And also because England was always "Top Country"- with Ireland, Scotland and Wales feeling trampled underfoot with something to rebel against? You don't need nationalism if your're top of the pile.

English Nationalism- as distinct from patriotism- seems to me to be made up. Nothing substantial.

Which are we, Bertrand? Nothing substantial or top of the pile?

There's a lot of such separatist stuff around at the moment. If we are supposed to be celebrating each nation state why stifle it in one? Or is this yet another Sins of the Father unto the Nth Generation thing?

I am proud to be English. Posts like yours make me less joyous about being a UK national.You see, I personally have never trampled on anyone. I have family from all 4 nation states as close as just 3 generations ago. I imagine that many people in all 4 are much the same. I find posts like yours odd, why be so determined to put down the English?

I'm not trying to put down the English. I am wondering why Englisn Nationalism doesn't seem to "work", and has, sadly, been hijacked by a deeply unpleasant majority. I agree that there is a very uneasy feeling about the Flag of St George that isn't matched with that of St Andrew and the Welsh dragon and was trying to come up with a theory. It seems to me to be quite reasonable to suggest that generations of historical English supremacy could have created a naturally evolving nationalism which the English didn't need (what with being Top Country). And the attempt to create a specific English identity has not worked very well, so far.

Then I apologise. I m probably overly sensitive because of all of that hijacking.

I suppose it sits alongside the idea that England does not need a parliament, though every other nation state does. I have yet to understand the tautology behind that. If we are trying to restructure, update the UK for a modern world then why cling to the history over a thousand years+ ago?

I suppose it will pass. I am old enough to remember the Welsh nationalism at its most recent second home burning height. I am sure that such idiocy was not representative, just as BF etc are not representative of England.

I am just bemused that this is not blindingly obvious to one and all! But not as bemused as I am by Farage, BF, EDF etc.

I don't think that nationalism equates to thinking that your country is inherently superior. I know that England has plenty that's both good and bad about it. That said, I want it to be governed by people I have voted for, whose priority is doing what is good for my country as opposed to balancing my country's needs against the needs of other nations. I want to know how my tax is being spent and for the rules that affect me to have been made by people I had a say in choosing. Sometimes the EU represents my interests better than Tory Dave but at least I can vote him out. If the EU makes bad choices for me, I'm stuck with them. My general impression ofvthe EU is that it is a place where politicians with no future in the UK looking at you Kinnock family go to get rich er.

So I suppose for me Brexit is nationalist in a way, but not in a 'we are superior to everyone else way'.

I can only see the EU working if we jumped in totally and minimum wage, benefits, prices, employment opportunities etc were the same in all member states. That's never going to happen.

my list is similar to OurBlanche.

I don't have the first category, I'm from the South East but I don't have a southern identity. In fact my first serious boyfriend is from Liverpool and I envied the fierce identity with everyone I met from that area, along with their welcoming of this southerner whole heartedly into the community. I loved him, and I loved his background. I don't think we have that in the south east.

So for me, I'm English first, British second. I don't feel European at all. I identify with America more than Europe.

If I was Scottish, I'm sure I would have been a big supporter of yes.

How can you define what nationalism is, and what it means to you? Incredibly personal, and incredibly hard to define.

In the context of the UK, the English have been the dominant partner and as such doesn't need to proclaim it's identity and uniqueness in the same way the Welsh and Scottish do. Until the middle of the 20th century England and Britain were used interchangeably. You still see it here when people talk about the British school system or British law, when there's no such thing and they mean English law or education.

so Mistigri ,,,,
English nationalism = bad
other nationalism = good
?

you do see being English differently from being Scottish... why does it go without saying for one and not the other? It is equally logical for both!

I'm not really sure what your point is here, but no I don't see English nationalism as being fundamentally different from Scottish nationalism, except insofar as Scottish nationalists explicitly want an independent Scotland whereas English nationalists aren't clear on this point. It's a fair question as to why English nationalists aren't campaigning for English independence. Do they want it, or not? And if they don't want it, how will they feel if they get it by accident?

I'm not really sure what your point is here It is in the language you used... I highlighted some of it. You seem to question English nationalism differently but maybe English nationalists aren't clear on this point. explains it and I have thought about that before.

I think some of the English nationalism is a kneejerk reaction to some of the other nationalist politics. The English parliament is one example that causes endless argument. Regardless of your take on it, your understanding of how it works, at heart the question is valid: if each of the 4 nation states have a parliament and then there is an overarching parliament, where is the discrete English parliament?

I am proud to be English, but am not necessarily separatist. I know that I tend to shut up and walk away from conversations about England... as they often devolve into Eng-er-lund conversations, usually as an accusation. It still seems to be difficult to discuss Englishness without disparagement.

People seem to have forgotten Scottish imperialists, Welsh and Irish imperialists... all the bad guys are remembered as British, which seems to equate to English, to reverse Dylans observation.

I am endlessly disappointed by seemingly reasonable people who suddenly dive headlong into such murky waters.

seem to have forgotten Scottish imperialists, Welsh and Irish imperialists... all the bad guys are remembered as British, which seems to equate to English, to reverse Dylans observation.

A fair point. There is a tendency amongst militant Scottish nationalists to see themselves as victims of imperialism and the bad Empire building stuff was the work of the English. Obviously it is utter nonsense. There are more MacDonalds listed in the Kingston phone book than the Edinburgh phone book for a reason. The Scots were every bit as culpable as the English in the evils perpetuated in the name of empire. Glasgow in particular hasn't fully faced up in its role in the slave trade as Liverpool and Bristol have.

I'm not trying to put down the English. I am wondering why Englisn Nationalism doesn't seem to "work", and has, sadly, been hijacked by a deeply unpleasant majority.

Perhaps because there is an asymmetry of power and population size? Scottish or Welsh nationalism is often seen as twee and cozy; English nationalism is sort of scary because of the size and scope it can carry.

Interestingly, retreating into Scottish or Welsh identities allows the Scotts and Welsh to slough off the vestiges of Imperial-Guilt along with the Union Jack. The English sort of get left to carry the can on that period of history. Perhaps they too would like to retreat into some sort of pre-Imperial past that is all Morris Dancing and May Queens and twee and cozy.