Why don't Switzerland and Norway want to join the EU?

[VeryPunny]

There is lots of talk of how Norway has to pay almost as much as the UK to the EU, and yet has no say, and how Switzerland has to accommodate most EU demands. And yet neither of these two countries show any inclination to join. Why is that? And of those arguments, which apply to Britain?

For the record, I am genuinely undecided -there would be massive upheaval for my industry if we left, DH and my jobs would probably be at risk. But I've worked for an EU institution which made me utterly despair at what the EU has become.

Rooner I have quite a few links with Swiss colleagues and I'd echo that.

The Swiss didn't even join the UN until 2002 (and women were only allowed vote from 1971). They're not really joiners. They have a very specific, localized form of government which means they are voting in referenda many times each year and each individual canton (a bit like a county) has its own specific laws. It is a very wealthy and conservative country and wants to hang on to its financial secrecy laws for as long as possible.

But, Switzerland has a lot of immigrants - the highest per capita of permanent immigrants in OECD.

www.swissinfo.ch/eng/migration-outlook_switzerland-has-highest-number-of-immigrants/41145410
I think in Geneva about 30% of residents are foreign born. They complain constantly about the French in particular coming over to work in Geneva in their thousands for low wages by Swiss standards (and commit all the crimes), but they can't find enough Swiss people willing to work as nurses, paint their houses or to drive their buses. They have attracted a lot of foreign business with European HQs and have a successful Pharma industry, but again need highly skilled foreigners to work there. If they go back to the days of visa as per before freedom of movement, they are still going to have to get these people to do the work but spend a lot more money and waste time on bureaucracy and paperwork. It's going to be the same in London in particular.

It is also very easy to exist in Geneva without speaking French. Not sure about Zurich and German. So for those that fear increased immigration, I don't think the Swiss model is going to work.

They also have to toe many of the EU rules but get no say in how they are made. They do get to hold on to their own laws - you would be shocked at how lax the tobacco advertising is, and workers rights are nothing like in the EU. They have now voted against freedom of movement, driven by the Swiss equivalent of UKIP which means their treaties with the EU are basically null and void and they are in the middle of figuring out what to do about it. I believe the EU is waiting to see what happens with the UK referendum but the first thing it did was pull Erasmus funding (which the Swiss government now pays as it values the scheme so much) as well as academic funding, which is also worth a lot to the Swiss as they tend to punch above their weight and so generally got lots of funding.

I believe that the amount of time, effort and money it takes to negotiate bilateral agreements with all the countries you need to trade with is staggering. I don't believe that the UK is going to get much change out of the money it saves from its EU dues once it has to pay swathes of lawyers and lobbyists to sort everything out (and keep negotiating). None of this is going to be transparent. And I guess politicians know this only too well. There are lots of issues with the EU, but I don't think bureaucracy is going to reduce if the UK goes it alone.

I should add that Switzerland has just held a referendum to cap migration numbers from the EU

Because it isn't an EU member, it can do this.

Well, it can only do this if it is willing to void all of its trade deals with the EU.

Now that the Swiss have understood this small detail (which they weren't told before the referendum), the polls have swinged massively to the other side, and if the referendum was held again tomorrow they would vote against capping immigration.

Complete opposite of what my Swiss colleagues say

No country can cope with uncapped immigration. It leads to civil wars

kate interesting list there thank you

Complete opposite of what my Swiss colleagues say

Funnily enough my English colleague isn't the font of all absolute knowledge about everything to do with England either. Neither is the other English colleague next door. Peculiar isn't it?

Roonerspism, here is my source:

www.24heures.ch/suisse/suisses-toujours-attaches-bilaterales/story/11535323

Poll from May 2016. Back in Feb 2014 the referendum found 50.5% in favour of the anti-immigration measures, today it would only be 36%.