Why immigration is a red herring in the EU referendum

[Bobby2013]

I keep seeing the same argument coming up in posts - all about 'control the boarders' etc, etc.... As a researcher I looks at facts, and I also use statistics and social trends reports as part of my work.

So if you want some facts, and not propaganda, (the EU vote does not impact on me, I don't live in the UK anymore and have an Irish passport) - then read on.

Here's a few points that you ought to consider: First of all, immigration from the EU is not as widespread as that of from former Commonwealth countries, and Asian nations.

Here's the BBC's analysis of it all: www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36419815

Even if there is a Brexit, there will still be immigration because there is a very real shortage of skilled workers in the UK.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukces-employer-skills-survey-2015-uk-report

Just as skilled workers can apply for jobs here, so too can UK workers apply abroad, so this argument about jobs for British people is void, because if given the choice of living in constant sunshine with better wages and conditions, or staying in the UK - which one are you going to go for?

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-medics-are-being-lured-away-to-australia-by-more-money-status-and-sunshine-survey-suggests-9629832.html

The UK has around 400,000 ex-pats in the EU - around half of them are skilled workers and you can bet that their companies will do whatever they can to keep them - so don't go thinking that somehow all these people will magically return to fill the gaps. Likewise, UK employers will do what they can to keep their EU employees.

Already the UK has severe shortages of engineers, financial workers, science & tech, construction workers and teachers to name just a few. Exiting the EU will not change that, we're not suddenly going to produce a batch of these workers especially as university education is so freaking expensive. You want more British people doing these jobs, then campaign to scrap tuition fees. Even then you're looking at a five-year wait until there's a pipeline of British talent. Do you think businesses are just going to mothball projects until they can employ a UK born worker?

Another point is that of 'back door' immigration - namely Ireland as a route. The UK has a deal with Ireland that would not change post-Brexit - the point is made in this article but I'll paste it here:

"The Irish would be exempt as part of the common travel area that seems to pretend that Ireland is still some kind of pre-1921 British appendage rather than another modern European country. But Ireland would not impose a similar visa regime on the rest of the EU and so would be a wide-open backdoor to illegal EU migration to Britain."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/brexiters-missing-point-australian-style-immigration-conservatives

I know I'll get a load of UKIP comments, but let me just stress that this is not about me saying Vote Remain, this is about urging you to think about your vote choices logically, not emotionally because you have been spun a diet of ideology that says all the UK's problems are to do with Polish builders nicking jobs.

That is just a smokescreen - if you want to be concerned about non-British influence then you need to look higher up the ladder. I would suggest reading up on the Panama Papers. The UK is the number one choice for clearing dirty money in the form of property investment. It is also one big pension pot for overseas investors, that's the reason London is so expensive. Not because of immigrants living there - but the overseas landlords.

www.propertywire.com/news/europe/uk-foregn-buyers-landlords-201401078637.html

Many of the large UK corporations are in fact foreign owned, and if the Hinkley C project goes through a large part of the country's energy will be in the hands of the French and Chinese.

Panama Papers
www.bbc.com/news/world-35934836

Brexit will not change any of this - so if you vote to leave, do so, but not because of some myth that it will impact on immigration.

One final word from me on this - according to govt statistics based on research - not what the bloke in the pub said - 42 per cent of migrants come from the EU. Some 45 per cent come from non-EU former Commonwealth countries. So, if there is a Brexit and the EU nationals all leave - there will still be - you guessed it - migrants! The whole point of my post is to lay out the facts that you're not going to wake up on June 24 and suddenly it's 1950s world where everyone is white and speaks like Bertie Wooster or Alf Garnett. In fact, there may well be MORE immigration from the Commonwealth as there is already an established system for processing such applications. The whole point of this post was to say - stop looking at immigration - if you want to vote Leave then do so - but don't base it on this myth that it will seal the UK up from "outsiders".

Indeed Bobby - brexit camp Leave chief exec is talking about keeping free movement for western-europeans and as you mentioned free movement to some commonwealth countries.

Born Free, there are indeed people and even the dreaded 'communities' who use other languages rather than English. Some are even speaking it exclusively in their home. Celtic languages which are native to this corner of Europe and spoken here long before the Germanic ancestor to English was introduced by European migration.

I'm sure you'd agree that it is wonderful they haven't been completely obliterated (although some critically endangered) by the introduction of English and wish success to people are trying to keep the native Celtic languages alive?

what the planet really needs is a virus or similar to kill off half the humans on it

Fucking hell ... I hope this was intended as a joke? (it would be a terrible joke, but as a serious wish it's actually psychopathic)

Why is there quite so much immigration from outside the EU?

Obviously the EU one is clear, but why the rest and why is it so difficult to control that too?

Outside the EU is difficult to get into the UK as you can only apply for a specific job and no nationals must have applied for it previously. Also you have to have a certain amount of money in your bank, you also cant claim any benefits for ten years i have seen a card shown to me by a guy from Africa. If you want to eventually apply for nationality after being here several years it costs several thousand pounds and if you get any information wrong its costs the same all over again from what i have been told.

Though people could come here on student visas's etc and dissapear as people argue that because we dont have ID cards etc and quite a shadow economy people can work off the system easier than France.

I'm aware of that Dad, and that's why it's so puzzling why the numbers are so high.

It would seem it's not difficult to get into the UK from outside the EU, if hundreds of thousands a year manage.

Skilled workers whose employers have to show they were the only suitable candidates, students, international spouses and families of British and EU citizens.

It adds up.

The government has been trying to bring non-EU migration down for years to stick to their entirely arbitrary immigration target, the problem is that all of these are pretty desirable and/or unavoidable.

Families of EU citizens will be counted as EU citizens, surely?

Hundreds of thousands of skilled workers and their spouses? Don't know.
Students and their families? They are clamping down on bogus schools.

I do know things add up quickly, I've just been to the supermarket, but I just can't get my head around the numbers.

Immigration is a red herring only insofar as it's a proxy for the real issue, which is that the UK hs lost control of important sovereign powers. Lots of people want an independent country again. Mass immigration is only the most tangible evidence of this loss of control and so of course people seize upon it.

No-one on the Remain side hs been honest about the purpose and ambitions of the EU, which is to become a single country. The whole point of the single market and free movement is that of course countries do not have internal tariffs or border checks while moving around within the country.

The Remain side knows, though, that the United States of Europe is wildly unpopular so insists on pretending it's just a trade agreement, rather than a supranational government with plans for its own army, a single tax system, unified laws, a single currency, and a steady breakdown of national identities in favour of a 'European' identity.

If you want to make the case for why this would be a good move, go ahead. I would disagree but it is at least an honest position. If you insist on pretending this is not the EU's aim, and all those structures of supranational government it is busy putting in place are just for some reason necessary for free trade, you are not being serious.

Families of EU citizens will be counted as EU citizens, surely?

Depends on their nationality, presumably. Many EU citizens are married to Britons.

There are lots of different ways of migrating. Anyone who grew up in London as I did will have many friends who are migrants themselves or married to migrants - often these are people who came over to study, met a partner, and stayed. In my extended family and close friendship group there are people from Japan, the US, Germany, South Africa (though with Irish nationality), Australia, India and Portugal. At work (big manufacturing co), a good percentage of people in management and research/ technical posts are from outside the UK.

Chardonnay, non-EU students account for about 140k, workers and family about 50k each.

All the details here!

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/immigration-category-workers-students-family-members-asylum-applicants

Thanks.

you have lost me pang, what has speaking celtic got to do with people surrounded by say POlish speakers?

with your logic perhaps you think its acceptable if english was over taken by polish at some stage?

OhHuge - you are right, and what is more, we seem to be the only country whose citizens are perpetually and unexpectedly surprised whenever the 'United States of Europe' argument is mooted. Elsewhere, politicians and people alike are au fait with the whole thing. Having returned to the boards and skimmed the posts (so I've only picked out a few narratives herein), I am amazed that some people are still conflating controlled and uncontrolled immigration. There's absolutely no argument between the two 'sides', is there? Everyone wants controlled immigration, don't they? I am also surprised that people are getting flamed for not wanting governments to build more houses, schools and hospitals. Perhaps people want to experience some space between themselves and their neighbours , and do not want to live in Soviet-style blocks of flats or overpopulated megacities? Oh, and I'd be hoofing it to Surrey from Blackburn like a shot if 'free' was on offer. As it is, the only reason why we are not all living in Surrey is because we can't afford it.

BornFree

I believe the point Pang is making is that the original peoples of these islands spoke celtic dialects and languages - these were overrun by romans, then vikings, then normans etc. etc.

Therefore, if you are worried about people coming over here and bringing their language with them - you are about 2000 years too late.