Whether you're an 'innie' or an 'outie'

[ilovevegcrisps]

This topic elicits strong feelings and I wondered if anyone feels disparaging or cynical about those voting in the opposite way to them - in other words, do you think less of somebody because of the way they vote?

I'm for OUT

In response to your OP, I don't think any less of a person for voting differently to me, however I might think less of that person if I thought their reasons for doing so were we misinformed.

Let me give you some examples:

"I'm voting REMAIN because I'm a European". This fails to recognise that the EU is not Europe. The EU is a political organisation that includes some but not all countries in Europe. I will still be a European after we have left the EU because, short of a major shift in the tectonic plates, the little archipelago on which I live, the British Isles, will still be part of the European continent.

"I'm voting REMAIN because my children may want to live and work in Europe". Again, misuse of the term 'Europe' when the EU is meant. If your children have the skills the country they wish to settle in actually needs, then I see no problem with them being accepted by that country, however I don;t think that any person should have an automatic right to chose to live / work / contribute to / be a burden on another country.

"I'm voting in for cheap roaming charges that the EU gives us". I would probably think that person is quite cynical or hasn't appreciated the more complex arguments.

"I'm voting in because I want to stay in a reformed EU or because I think we need to be in it to reform it". Hope over reality. I think Cameron has proved the EU is not capable of reforming itself. We have very little influence within the EU. We have I Commissioner, one Head of State/Govt, and one Minister on the Council of Europe, that includes all the other member states. We have 73 of the 751 MEPs and that number will decline as new countries join. We are constantly outvoted as Peter Lilley's 72 - 0 score shows.

This is the one that really gets me --

"I'm voting in because I don't trust the Tories". This is usually stated by Labour voters, especially Corbynistas. They see the EU as providing a foil or curb or brake on Cameron's excesses. Many of them are also totally opposed to TTIP, the EU/US trade deal that will allow American companies to compete for public services and which will adversely affect the NHS, yet they want to REMAIN in the EU that is imposing that deal on us and threatening the NHS.

There is so much that reason that I find utterly illogical.

1. Assuming that they're right and the EU does indeed curb the Tories excesses, then surely that same EU would curb the excesses of Corbyn too if he were ever to be elected or any other labour PM. If you really press people who hold this belief they will often admit that they don't believe Corbyn will ever get into power and some will also say they expect that Labour will never get back into power.

2. If you are not part of the US (which we're not) and we have left the EU (which I hope we do) they we will escape TTIP and it's future scope because we would no longer be party to that deal. Oh, they argue, but even if TTIP didn't apply to us, then Cameron would just give us another sort of TTIP which would be just as bad. I despair at this because TTIP took many years to negotiate with the US. Cameron would only have 3.5 years at most to dream up his own TTIP if we left the EU before the next election in 2020 at which we would vote the Tories out if they tried to do that. Plus, Cameron would be ditched by the Tories on 24 June for losing the referendum and the Tories would be too busy dealing with the really important stuff after BREXIT to dream up a new TTIP.If the NHS is your biggest priorty then surely LEAVE ing is the safest option?

3. Even if the EU has imposed that deal, by the time we Brexit, as a sovereign country and free to make our own laws, we could just over-turn it.

4. If you really do love the NHS so much don't you understand that at some point in the future as the EU seeks to harmonise everything, it will harmonise the NHS out of existence. The UK has the only national, free at the point of delivery healthcare system within the EU.It's unaffordable to role out that model across the EU. It is however feasible to roll out insurance-based healthcare across the EU - the big corporation insurance companies would love the profit they could make on that. Bye bye NHS.

5. Labour is rightly proud of the welfare state, however, you cannot have a welfare state that is as extensive and generous as that in the UK and leave it open to be freely used by up to 500 million other EU citizens - as we must do, because it is illegal to discriminate against any EU citizen. The cost of treating every EU citizen who is entitled to use the MHS, but may not have contributed anything / little towards it will cripple the NHS and will overload the benefits system. It is already illegal to allocate social housing in Britain to people of any specific EU nationality. Everyone, including EU migrants to the UK has an equal right. That's fine if we are building new social housing, but we're not. We just have fewer available to our children.

6. Corbyn has spent his entire political career being against the EU - until he gets into power as Labour leader. Why has he had this Damascene awakening?

7. One man one vote. However, you cannot use that vote to remove the EU, You can change domestic UK Governments but you cannot elect an alternative EU, as Tony Benn warned in his 5 teats of power.

8. They see the EU as some sort of socialist utopia. That may have been an early aim of the European Social Model but that idea was long-since hijacked by Big Corpa and its 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels, all trying to shape the EU laws to suit themselves. If the EU is so good for the ordinary working man then why are Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, the big banks, the hedge funds, Cameron, a third of the FTSE companies all urging us to vote REMAIN. None of these have ever been especially revered for the socialist ideals. The socialists who do want us to REMAIN are failed politicians such as Blair, Mandelson, Kinnock, and even Tory, Paton. Their judgement doesn't fill me with confidence.

9. There is a right-wing emergence amongst the countries within the EU: France's National Front, Germany's Alternative fur Deutschland, Greece's Golden Dawn, the new Polish Government etc. What will happen when the EU starts following Right wing policies, as it will, when the right-wing parties get into power and start appointing EU Commissioners who hold their views and electing right-wing MEPs. What will we do then - start following the right wing diktats that are handed to us by Brussels? The EU interprets laws to suit itself - a we will see when they forcibly deport migrants tomorrow in contravention of international law according to an UNHCR spokesman. At what point do we say , No, that's wrong! Much safer to be out of that nightmare, making our own just laws.

So, if you want to stay in the EU then please be honest about it instead of using the 'Tories would be worse' excuse. I am not a Tory and never will be but I do know that you can vote the Tories out. You cannot vote out Presidents Junckers, Schulz or Tusk.

I'm an innie. I don't judge people I know who are outies but I do find it very concerning. The "leave" campaign don't really seem to have any kind of plan for what will happen if we do vote for Brexit. I can't help but think that a lot of people are voting to leave to express their frustration with the status quo (which I can definitely understand) rather than because they fully understand all the facts and genuinely believe we would be better off out. And facts seem to be in desperately short supply at the moment. Both sides of the campaign are just mud-slinging, rather than equipping voters with the information they need to actually make an informed decision. But all these politicians... it's like they're back in the Oxford debating club. They're all having a lovely time arguing the toss, but when it comes down to it, they will be fine either way because they're all incredibly rich. It is us normal people who will have to face the consequences of our decision, for better or for worse.

But all these politicians... it's like they're back in the Oxford debating club. They're all having a lovely time arguing the toss, but when it comes down to it, they will be fine either way because they're all incredibly rich. It is us normal people who will have to face the consequences of our decision, for better or for worse

That sums up how I feel brilliantly.

Dh and I are voting the same. However because of what we do for a living they assume we're voting the opposite.

It's useful, it means people don't bother to ask us

I am 100% for staying in.

I can empathise with out voters when it is based on a left view - ie a reaction to how Greece was handled and how the EU works in favour of multinationals (eg concerns over TTIP).

I cannot empathise, and I do think less, when out voters roll out the xenophobia, a return to an imagined golden age of national pride, or some kind of over investment in a national identity based on an 'us and them' mentality. But as others here have mentioned, I wouldn't think a great deal of an in voter if they had some overly simplistic reason either - eg that it may make their holiday more difficult (though obvs there is a bigger debate behind that about freedom of movement which is important).

Springing

Wow.

What a post!

thatcoldfeeling - there are always a few xenophobic trolls kicking around on the internet. But the "golden age of national pride" angle doesn't necessarily come from a xenophobic or racist place. I do however think some people are overestimating our importance in the world, and underestimating the extent to which our EU membership gives us political significance which we might not otherwise have.

A lot of people say, "we were fine before we joined the EU and we'll be fine after we leave". But the world has changed a huge amount in a short space of time. Not so long ago, we had an empire. We played a critical role in both world wars, in particular in standing up to Hitler. But by the 1970s things weren't actually looking so good for us. The EU in its original (much smaller) form was a huge success and we wanted to be a part of it.

We can't unpick everything that has happened in the last 45 years. All we can do is look at the situation as it is now and say, "Ok, the EU exists. Are we better off in or out of it."

Leaving the EU won't make it go away. And it certainly won't stop us being affected by it.

As a person who owns property, and temporarily lives in France, I am voting out of the EU, regardless of the personal impact to us.
In fact, almost everyone else I know in the same position, is also voting to exit.

My main concerns are the unelected officials who run the EU, and their lack of accountability.

At least in the UK we can vote to change the elected government if we don't like them. This is something not afforded to us by the EU, who seek to control whichever government is in power in the UK anyway.

"At least in the UK we can vote to change the elected government if we don't like them."

You say that, but the only way my vote in the general election will ever make a difference is if I move to a different constituency. My MP is a rather notorious member of the cabinet and everything he does makes me want to cry. There is literally no point in me even writing to him because his views are diametrically opposed to mine in every way and I know that writing to him wouldn't make any difference. But I can't "vote him out" because where I live, you could stick a blue rosette on a monkey and it would win.

I actually feel more democratically represented in the European Parliament than I do in Westminster.

I actually feel more democratically represented in the European Parliament than I do in Westminster

Then you need to hope that the EU never follows the trend if its constituent member countries and heads to the Right. The European Parliament us a toothless poodle that cannot initiate any laws and cannot defeat any that are out in front of them.

The European Parliament us just an illusion to make people feel they have done say in a democratically deficient EU.

Well we do have some say, and right now I feel as though I have no say whatsoever in what happens in Westminster, so I don't find the "democracy" argument particularly compelling. Particularly given that if we leave but remain part of the single market (like Norway, for example), we will still have to follow the vast majority of the rules but we will no longer have any representation in the European Parliament or any say in EU policy at all, so we will have less democracy, not more.

Well we do have some say, and right now I feel as though I have no say whatsoever in what happens in Westminster, so I don't find the "democracy" argument particularly compelling.

That's like saying 'My preference didn't win so the's no democracy'. That's a bit facile.

Particularly given that if we leave but remain part of the single market (like Norway, for example), we will still have to follow the vast majority of the rules but we will no longer have any representation in the European Parliament or any say in EU policy at all, so we will have less democracy, not more

No. The REMAIN crew use thus argument but it's false. We don't need to be like Norway, or Switzerland. Iceland and Turkey both trade tariff-free with the EU. Canada trades with the EU but doesn't have to accept mass migration from the EU into Canada,

There is no danger in leaving the EU. It is the biggest confidence trick ever perpetrated on the uK

Think about it - REMAIN will be voting for Cameron's recommendation, funded by Goldman Sachs, to impose TTIP that will destroy the NHS - because they don't trust Cameron

It's like a Monty Python sketch

I don't think there's anything facile about pointing out that my vote is meaningless. It literally makes no difference who I vote for. And it never will, unless I move to a different constituency. I don't find that particularly democratic. Why should my vote count for so much less than someone who lives in Northampton or Wood Green?

Your position appears to be that you think we should leave the single market altogether. For what it's worth, I think that is the only valid position to take if you want to leave. But I think that to say there is "no risk" is plainly false. We are not Canada. Canada is in a different continent, it has a different economy and political system, it is a much bigger country with abundant natural resources, and it has free trade agreements in place with other countries.

Leaving the single market would not put us into the position that Canada is in. We would be a small country, with no free trade agreements, starting from scratch. There is a high likelihood that our economy would be in turmoil and that our currency would be seriously devalued (although this could be a positive for UK exports). We would have to start again from the beginning, attempting to negotiate free trade agreements on our own, mostly with much bigger countries who would be in no particular hurry to do so. The USA have already said they have no interest in negotiating a free trade agreement with us outside the EU. That's not to say they wouldn't change their position in the future, but that's the point. There are no guarantees. There would be a lot of uncertainty, for a long time. It's all very well to say we might come out of it better in the long run. We might. We might not. No one knows.

And "in the long run" is not very comforting to me. I graduated in the middle of the financial crisis. The early days of my career were overshadowed by economic uncertainty. I have watched property prices shoot into the stratosphere whilst wages have failed to keep up. I'm now 30 and would like to own my own home, get married and start a family. Do I want to live in economic turmoil for the next 10, or even 5 years? Not really.

To say there is "no risk", I think is very facile.

It literally makes no difference who I vote for. And it never will, unless I move to a different constituency. I don't find that particularly democratic. Why should my vote count for so much less than someone who lives in Northampton or Wood Green?

On that basis, no constituency would ever change party hands, when we know in reality that they do. They can even elect independents, as they did in Bromsgrive when the NHS was ejected as an MP or in Tatton where Martin Bell was ejected as an independent. The Greens got Lucas elected. You just need to believe it's possible and get out there and start campaigning at local level. That's how the LibDems started - grassroots upwards.

Your position appears to be that you think we should leave the single market altogether.

Yes. The free movement of people is too damaging to the UK where services, houses , schools and healthcare are already overstretched. I don't want to limit non-EU immigration because it's the only form of immigration we have control over as that Denys us skills from throughout the world we could benefit from

For what it's worth, I think that is the only valid position to take if you want to leave. But I think that to say there is "no risk" is plainly false. We are not Canada. Canada is in a different continent, it has a different economy and political system, it is a much bigger country with abundant natural resources, and it has free trade agreements in place with other countries.

Leaving the single market would not put us into the position that Canada is in. We would be a small country, with no free trade agreements, starting from scratch.
We are the 5th largest economy in the world. We would be the EU's biggest market. We would be geographically closer to the EU than Canada. There are many economists to say that trade deals can be made very quickly as the beauty of being out if the EU means we would be dealing on one-to -one basis when making trade deals instead if having the overhead if being just one country within the 28 that are trying to make a deal.

Sorry - have to stop and go out now. But in or out trade will continue

If you have something to sell that others want - they will buy it.

And vice versa

It's been happening for millennia.

"On that basis, no constituency would ever change party hands, when we know in reality that they do."

Mine never has, and it is never likely to. It has been held by two Conservative politicians since it was created (before I was born). The incumbent is actually a distant cousin of his predecessor. There are too many wealthy people here for the seat to ever be won by any party except the Conservatives.

"Yes. The free movement of people is too damaging to the UK where services, houses , schools and healthcare are already overstretched. I don't want to limit non-EU immigration because it's the only form of immigration we have control over as that Denys us skills from throughout the world we could benefit from."

I accept your point of view, but I don't agree with it. You can't consider immigration or any other issue in isolation. You have to look at the whole package. And my view is that when you look at everything together, the benefits of being in the single market outweigh the disadvantages. But at least your position is honest and coherent.

"We are the 5th largest economy in the world."

We are now. That takes into account our status as a full member of the EU, and the fact that a lot of international companies choose to do their EU business here, in English. Would we be the 5th largest economy in the world if we weren't in the EU? Doubtful, in my view.

"If you have something to sell that others want - they will buy it."

Indeed. In other words, the seller sets the terms and conditions of sale, not the buyer. And we buy more from other countries than we sell.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

I should probably go and do something else myself. Nice chatting with you though.

PS - for what it's worth I wish Canada was in the EU and had to accept free movement. I would move there in a heartbeat. Haha.

Many of them are also totally opposed to TTIP, the EU/US trade deal that will allow American companies to compete for public services and which will adversely affect the NHS, yet they want to REMAIN in the EU that is imposing that deal on us and threatening the NHS.

I wrote that last night and, sure enough, up pops a Labour supporter, Diane Abbott, Shadow Cabinet Member, on LBC this afternoon, telling us what a terrible thing TTIP is. How it favours big business and what a threat it is to our NHS, like she'd just discovered TTIP and had just started to understand it's awful implications for our public services

So would this stunning revelation mean that Duane Abbott was now going to vote Leave to spare us all the tyranny of TTIP, she was asked?

Err, no,

Why not?

Err, well , because the Labour Party position is to vote to stay in the EU

I just wanted to reach into the radio and ........ This stance is just dishonest- knowing or believing something will be bad for thousands of people who rely on NHS for their healthcare yet urging them to jeopardise it by staying the EU.

Sometimes the moral thing is to put the welfare of others above party politics and your own political career.

You may have got around a poor education system by sending your son to a private school Diane, but we can't afford private healthcare when TTIP ribs us if the NHS.

Disgusting

I actually do think the secrecy surrounding TTIP is very troubling. But as I understand it, the other member states are working hard to make it fit for purpose and to ensure that citizens are protected. The Tories would love to sign up to it exactly as it is. Have no doubts - if we leave the EU then the Tories will lose absolutely no time in trying to sign up to something equally damaging and probably a good deal worse.

I actually do think the secrecy surrounding TTIP is very troubling.
I accept that some secrecy is needed when negotiating.

But as I understand it, the other member states are working hard to make it fit for purpose and to ensure that citizens are protected.H

That troubles me. Nobody should be fighting more for the UK than its Government. Negotiating such an important trade deal is not something that it should be abdicating to foreign Governments. We have interests thatcher very different to many member states, our high percentage if inner iccupied holding, our geographical location, our unique NHS. We should be in there ensuring that the one-size-fits-Al, deal does not jeopardise our interests.

The Tories would love to sign up to it exactly as it is. Have no doubts - if we leave the EU then the Tories will lose absolutely no time in trying to sign up to something equally damaging and probably a good deal worse.

If we left the EU they would be too busy dealing with the fallout. People cannot argue that it would "take a decade" for the UK to reestablish trade deals and also argue that Cameron could introduce a new variant TTIP within the remaining term of this Government and he wouldn't be in charge post-BREXIT anyway

I am just horrified at the way this TTIP argument is not being given the hearing it deserves. If, as Abbott says, it will adversely the NHS then this should be a major point of discussion in the EU debate - instead if the current dishonesty that "it doesn't really matter because Cameron would give us worse".

That's defeatism

Interesting that there are so many outies on here. I thought it would be the opposite.

Interesting that anti-conversatives were the loudest voices on MN in May 2015. Oh wait. See how that general election turned out.

"Nobody should be fighting more for the UK than its Government. Negotiating such an important trade deal is not something that it should be abdicating to foreign Governments."

They're not fighting for the UK, per se. They are fighting for their own interests. But our interests are aligned with theirs. All member states have an equal interest in ensuring that any trade deal does not harm the interests of its citizens. If our government is not prepared to act in my best interests, but other member states are, then fine. I would rather my own government acted in my best interests, but I don't have any confidence that it will, unfortunately.

Most people in this country claim to want to protect the NHS. And yet we voted the Conservatives into power. It seems quite clear to me that having a Conservative government is incompatible with protecting the NHS, since they would love to sell it off. Go figure.

Out for sure.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3520002/Safety-alert-EU-blocks-vital-checks-doctors-qualifications-Concern-cards-medics-come-force-2018.html
The EU for reasons best known to itself has decided to do away with Dr qualification checks.
This worries me so much,we need to be able to trust that a Dr is really properly qualified.
Apparently they plan to do the same regards Dentists, again this is worrying.
Why do they have to "tinker" with this,it beats me.
The General Medical council raised concerns regards this in 2015 but they have been ignored.
This is why I am an outie,it's one of many reasons to be honest.

The worrying thing for me is that if we do vote to remain the Eu will not hold back on on creating a European superstate with a common currency that the uk post referendum will be required to take full part in.
Secondly there are literally hundreds of thousands of people waiting to be granted a European passport in 6 years intent on moving to this country.
I believe our way of life as we know it will suffer immeasurably and I for one will not cheat my children of the quality of life and culture I have had.

For Mums on here ,here is a link.NHS staff past and present ask the public to vote to Leave the EU on the 23rd of June to save our National Health Service.
I will stand with them and support them and vote Leave.
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/660280/EU-referendum-Brexit-save-the-NHS-funding-letter-doctors-nurses-paramedics

Out! Rarely been so sure of anything in my life!