"Greed blunts social compassion. The rich take too much, leaving the poor with too little..."

[Aefondkiss]

An opening paragraph in the Guardian's society section today, about modest living. It was said by a man called Bob Holman.

It also says in the article 3 million children live in poverty in the UK, " half the UK's population shares 6% of Britain's wealth, while the top 1% own a quarter of it".

I know we have heard it before, but .

It is wrong.

Not having SkyTV a sign of poverty. perlease.

Poverty is not having enough money to have a roof over your head at night, warm clothes and a hot meal everyday.

Poverty is not have SkyTV or not going on holiday

Starlight, one issue is though that people's expectations have become greater also.

We did not have a phone when I was very young (I am only 36 btw) then we only had a 'party line' because it was cheaper and I didn't have a holiday with my parents between 11 and 16 (a friends parents took me for the od weekend in their caravan), without exception all my clothes were second hand (I used to love the 'Outgrown shop' - early dress agency in my town), hand ons or hand knitted - the only ones I really hated were my broter's out grown ones!

I was not poor I was just brought up by parents who thought make do and mend was the right way (my father was 50 when I was born)It was a usual way in my rural school, there were few 'wealthy' folk - who would now be considered of average income/consumer goods.

I did not have a home PC until 3 years ago, although I gave up work 8 yrs ago, but did not feel impoverished by this - I went to the library.

I did not have a mobile phone for many years having given up work, I don't feel one is necessary.

We didn't have acess to SKY until 3 years ago, I did not feel excluded.

Until 3 years ago we had a TV that was 15 yrs old which you had to change channels with a pencil as the buttons had fallen off and it had no remote.

So I did not have many of the items that are considered to qualify me for poverty,
BUT we are NOT poor, (in fact quite the opposite there is a website where you can input your yearly income and we come out in the top few percent worldwide) we just chose to spend our money on other things or save for a good future.

So this is a long winded way of saying I agree with expat - there is a massive difference between not being able to afford broadband/mobile phone/sky and not being able to heat your house or eat healthy food.

anyone who actually thinks not having Sky tv constitutes poverty is a moron.I agree with expat - there are a hell of a lot of old poeple living in poverty in the UK, not because they don't embrace murdoch but because they cannot afford to keep warm.

I also agree with southeastra - mass privatisation has guaranteed the interests of shareholders over and above those of the consumer, of services which should be public and not private property. Thatcher's legacy. This is why British Gas and other power companies recently announced costs of heating would rise 40% this autumn but they can still afford to pay huge fuck off dividends to their shareholders.

expat - I have read many definitions of poverty that I and my family fall into .

Why? Because we choose not to have lots of the consumer goods and make many of the lifestyle choices that are deemed "standard" by the powers that be.

We are not poor, and our children are not underprivileged, in any way. The definitions are ridiculous.

It's quite possible to have wealth and behave responsibly to society. Families like the Frys and the Cadburys are cases in point.

Bill Gates is apparently trying to innoculate almost every child in Africa. He seems to be making a better fist of it than any government could.

I've just read the Rowntree report. Honestly, they make a joke out of a very serious subject.

There is genuine poverty - of experience, expectation - but they list things like 'cavery meal once a week' and 'two cafe coffees a week' as indicators of acceptable standard of living, as well as mobile phones and Sky Tv.

The Rowntree reports just serve to get people's backs up. I remember they did one a while ago where children were classed as living in poverty if they did not get a NEW bike EACH every year. Ha ha ha.

agreed Bridie. It is equally possible to become a rich tax exile having grown up and got rich in the UK - like Lewis Hamilton - and therefore become, in my view, a parasite.

Or Phil Collins

Or Sean Connery.

Agree Bridie, there are some great philanthropists BUT the question is ...should it be down to an individual, albeit a very wealthy one, to vaccinate all the DC in Africa.

I took it to mean less of the GDP or tax income, but I'm sure she will tell you herself.

"The most successful organizations understand that the purpose of any business is to create value for customers, employees, and investors, and that the interests of these three groups are inextricably linked. Therefore, sustainable value cannot be created for one group unless it is created for all of them. The first focus should be on creating value for the customer, but this cannot be achieved unless the right employees are selected, developed, and rewarded, and unless investors receive consistently attractive returns.

What do we mean by value creation? For the customer, it entails making products and providing services that customers find consistently useful. In today's economy, such value creation is based typically on product and process innovation and on understanding unique customer needs with ever-increasing speed and precision. But companies can innovate and deliver outstanding service only if they tap the commitment, energy, and imagination of their employees. Value must therefore be created for those employees in order to motivate and enable them. Value for employees includes being treated respectfully and being involved in decision-making. Employees also value meaningful work; excellent compensation opportunities; and continued training and development. Creating value for investors means delivering consistently high returns on their capital. This generally requires both strong revenue growth and attractive profit margins. These, in turn, can be achieved only if a company delivers sustained value for customers."

Value Creation and Business Success
by Paul O'Malley

from The Systems Thinker, Vol. 9, No. 2

Nonsense! The Government take too much tax and squander it! Do you know how much money is taken in tax each year! Yet we still have high poverty! Billions and billions of tax is wasted or stolen from the kitty by politicians.

The issue of squandering taxation (which of course a real issue) is a separate issue (that adversely affects the redistribution of wealth to the poorer members of society) to the one of unequal value creation among all members of society.

I'd prefer to keep the money myself and give it the salvation army or similar organisations that will put the money to better effect.

Well, who else is going to do it (vaccinating Africa)? I can think of about one government on the whole continent that would be capable of it.

If we waited until it was possible for a pan-African initiative to do it, millions would have died: some of them the very youngsters we need to grow up and lead the country.

As we are all aware, governments are often inefficient. It is a good idea to have a healthy NGO sector and organisations in civil society to provide counterbalance to government, and to make up for governments' failings.

Both are necessary.

The poor are not getting that wealth though are they?

Starlight

I said - the poor create less value, in capitalist terms, which is why they earn less. This is simplistic, but a general truth.

Nurses in the UK are paid for from taxation ie are a government funded service. So they are not creating value in the capitalist sense. They are a service the electorate values and wishes to pay for collectively out of taxation.

I don't know how "community project leaders" are funded. Do you?

rebelmum1 - well, in the UK the poor have the same access to the NHS as the rich. In many, many countries if you cannot pay, there is no way of seeing a doctor.

Ditto schools.

Yes and the same chance of mortality by superbugs.

Yes our education system is really impressive.. is it one in five children leave school and can't read?

I'd prefer to pay for private healthcare and private school and get a better service as would most people. OAP's in my local area are being picked up by bus and having hip operations in France.