Do Cadbury's use child labour/ source from Cote D'Ivoire?

[UnderRated]

Because their website claims they don't use children but I thought I had read otherwise.

I just need to know, can I buy Cadbury's or not?

I'm with orangehead. Buy it, even if they use child labour, and especially if they are investing in places like Cote d'Ivoire. Because the only way hideously poor countries like C d'I will ever improve protection of children, workers, and living standards generally is by having international investment. The investors might work to lower standards than you would expect in Europe but you can bet your life that their standards are streets higher than local investors, and these things get imported into the local economy. And remember that few parents would prefer to send their kids to work in factories than to school, but it's often the choice between working or starving (or the sex trade). If you care about kids in Cote d'Ivoire, BUY the chocolate.

motherinferior wrote "I am quite sure, IWFN, that if large corporations approached the Fair Trade Foundation (which is I assume the body to which you are alluding) they would be eligible for accreditation."

Nope. Fair Trade quite specifically exclude anything that isn't a small co-operative from eligability. That means that the large scale producers - family farms and plantations - that the majority of the large-scale coffee brands rely on as a simple matter of scale cannot wear the Fair Trade mark regardless of how they treat their workers or what they pay. Is it fair then to effectively boycott brands and the farmers who sell their produce to them as not being Fair Trade when that organisation refuses to consider them for certification?

Like I said, Fair Trade is a fantastic concept. It is rather naive in its political outlook however - you cannot wish away basic concepts of economics lke global over-supply in coffee and local corruption forcing farmers to buy fertiliser at inflated prices. Its less severe an issue for cocoa farmers, but like I said, the entire UK supply of Fair Trade certified cocoa beans would keep the Yorkie plant in production for 4 months. We - Nestle, Cadbury, Mars etc - cannot change who it chooses to consider for certification, and the suppliers who are eligable produce raw materials on a microscopic scale. So what do we do?

The only way of ensuring that you are not buying into child slave labour, unfair working conditions and endorsing poor people dieing is to ensure that you only have involvement in Fairtrade companies. To say it is naive bla bla bla is wrong because if it was your family who were struggling to even eat then political situations wouldn't even be a consideration. Don't you think it's about time that we stopped making excuses for rich countries greedy habits of wanting cheap and wanting to fall into line with everyone else by buying Cadbury and Nestle? I have emailed the Fairtrade foundation about how big companies such as Nestle and Cadbury and have asked them if it is true that they can not be a part of the Fairtrade mark and will post their reply on here when I get it. And on the subject of Nestle have a look at www.babymilkaction.org and www.stopthetraffick.org and also think about their profits??? Also, last year both cadbury and Nestle would not agree to ruling out child labour. Have a look at www.ethiscore.org for a bit of food for thought. And all this rubbish about millions of farmers dieing if Cadbury and Nestle closed down is just another excuse, do you think the world would stop buying chocolate? No they would buy whatever was available which would be a lot of Fairtrade which would mean there would be a massive growth of Fairtrade and more farmers would benefit from being able to afford the basics of life. I say close both of them down! They are causing massive damage to people, animals and the planet due to their greed of trying to be bigger and better than anyone else. And don't you think it's about our own ethical decisions? If we want to ensure we are only buying from ethical production methods we should be allowed that choice. Not be bribed by the big companies who try to make us believe that if we don't buy their stuff we should go on a guilt trip because we are making the poor farmers even poorer? While they have billions of pounds in turnover.

And Montezumas pay over and above the Fairtrade price and don't buy their cocoa from the cote D'Ivoire and confirm that their supply chain is all fair and good.
Chris

Well said!!!

Erm, its not about companies like mine and Cadbury, PG Ttips et al asking Fair Trade if we can join in (and we do btw with Partners Blend), its about the farmers applying for Fair Trade status and then having a buyer at Fair Trade prices.

The issue remains that Fair Trade was set up to aid the developing world and as such went out to look after small producres. That excludes the kind of big producers that big companies need. I say again, regardless of what Nnestle want, we cannot go Fair Trade on hocolate because there is only a fraction of the capacity that we need available in Fair Ttrade cocoa beans. And Cadbury and Mars are in exactly the same boat.

But frankly this is anothheer "do what you like" issues. If blaming big companies for what Fair Trade will and won't accredit make you feel better, then fine. Doesn't change the reality though.

And you talk about profits like we're fleecing the farmers. Who, the same ones who have enjoyed a 55% increase in the rate we pay for Cocoa beans this last year? And a 27% increase in the price of coffee? If you hadn't noticed, commodity prices have gone through the roof. That means that when Mr farmer sells his product on the open market, he gets a lot more cash. Interestingly enough, one of the tipping points that got the whole Fair Trade thing going in the first place was coffee prices falling through the floor. Have you heard of something called supply and demand? The collapse of the International Coffee Agreement in 1989 and the huge over-supply of coffee that resulted was what caused the price to crash and farmers to starve, not big companies screwing them. Go Google it - it might demolish some of the myths out there that people like us dictate what price we pay for things.

Well, Nestle have got you well brainwashed, haven't they?

What, so you're saying that commodity prices haven't driven cocoa up by 55%? I might work for what you may consider to be the evil empire, but I'm not making this stuff up.

Do you lot ignore all the other things being done to give a better deal to farmers? I had a student recoil in horror at a box of PG Tips as being "not Fair Trade so exploiting farmers". The "Rainforest Alliance" stuff plastered all over the box didn't seem to interest her, despite their sustainability standards providing the same levels of protection to their workforce as Fair Trade - the difference is that they don't insist on only certifying co-ops.

So come on, is it a genuine interest in sustainability - in which case you'll support everything? Or is it just a fashionable cause you know little about that makes you feel better?

This turned out to be an interesting discussion, thank you all.

It's really hard to find Fair Trade chocolate over here anyway and since almost all chocolate here is quite disgusting, the easiest solution for me is not to buy any at all.

PG tips is only 50% Rainforest Alliance tea.
And if you want to talk about being fashionable, aren't the big companies merely jumping on the bandwagon now they realise that people do care about ethical issues?

The other thing about fair trade is that part of it is a way of identifying the people that are willing to pay more for their chocolate than everybody else. I don't buy much chocolate so have no idea what the difference is, but bet that the mark up between cadbury choc and Green and Black is at least 10 times more than however much more the cocoa farmer gets for being a fair trade producer. Coffee is an easier comparison because when you get a cappuccino, the fair trade version is exactly the same product, from the same shop, and the only difference is the coffee beans. The farmer is definitely, definitely not getting all of that 15p mark-up.

I'm not at all rich and I'm a civil servant, but I have realised that big business trying to make as much money as possible is good for the economy and good for me too. It's naive to criticise big business just for being big or for being business. Criticise them for an issue - promoting powdered milk, giving a CEO a 50m bonus, whatever, but not for seeking profits nor for investing in countries that will never get any richer without investment.

Of course the Farmer doesn't get the mark-up. Retailers love Fair Trade, they get people to pay them piles of extra profit margin for effectively the same product and get them to do it with a smile. The retailer then pockets the cash and pays the supplier a much lower rate.

And as I said, Fair Trade or not farmers are all getting paid far more than Fair trade guarantees them because of the soaring price of their products on the world market. The average Fair Trade farmer's wage was 6% more than a non Fair Trade Farmer. They all have seen cocoa prices go up 55% in a year - Fair Trade don't pay any more than the market rate when the market pass their minimum price.

Given that one of the aims of Fair Trade is to promote ethical working conditions, I take it that people also support certified supplier schemes which do exactly the same? And why doesn't Fair Trade do anything to educate its accreditees in agri-business? Surely its in the interest of those small co-operative farms to grow crops with a high a yield as possible and using fewer resources? Given its ethical stance this has always surprised me - then I remember its anti-capitalism stance and it doesn't.

Retailers get no more mark up on Fairtrade products than on non fairtrade products, in fact small shops often put a much smaller mark up on to encourage people to buy it instead of the 'people exploitation' chocolate. How much do you think it actually costs to make a bar of chocolate FAIRLY with the complete production process/transportation etc. It's the same old story here - many are looking for excuses not to buy or endorse Fairtrade when it is the only way of guarenteeing the producer gets a fair wage. We can beat around the bush forever but lets face it - the truth is 'iworkfornestle' has been completely brainwashed and all the others in disagreement of Fairtrade either don't want to pay the prices or don't want to admit that what they have been buying for years is ethically wrong. Take the time out to look at the fairtrade foundations website and read for yourself the fabulous work they are doing. And why do you think Fairtrade sales have more than doubled in the last 2 years? In fact shot up from 91 million in 2004 to 500 million in 2007. So what's the story behind babymilkaction.org then? Is this a load of bitter people making up stories or is it a good bunch of people trying to save the baby that is killed every 2 seconds by the likes of Nestle? MMMmmmmmmmmmm.......let me think, not those do gooders at it again surely.

Here is the reply from the Fairtrade foundation so as assumed, it is incorrect what 'iworkforNestle was saying.

I would like to clarify the availability of Fairtrade cocoa. Around 80% of the world?s cocoa is grown by smallholders and around 35%of the cocoa imported to the UK comes from Ghana where 84% of cocoa farmers own less than four hectares. Kuapa Kokoo is a Fairtrade certified co-operative in Ghana that represents 40,000 farmers and produces around 10% of Ghana?s cocoa. With less than 5% of production sold to Fairtrade buyers, the majority is purchased by conventional chocolate companies in the UK and elsewhere. Kuapa Kokoo alone, therefore, could supply the cocoa for any leading brand of a major UK chocolate manufacturer. And if the demand was there other producers could be brought into the system in the same way as happened recently for Tate & Lyle, the leading UK sugar brand and global manufacturer. When they committed to converting 100% of their UK retail sugar to Fairtrade their suppliers in Belize (where previously there were no Fairtrade certified sugar groups) worked to put in place the necessary changes to meet Fairtrade standards.
I hope this is useful.
With best wishes,
Dave Goodyear

Policy & Information Officer
Fairtrade Foundation

Good news! So:

1. Fair Trade certify all our farmers in Ivory Coast
2. They get no extra cash now because the Fair trade price patches the market following the 55% increase in cocoa prices
3. They're guanteed a minimum price ongoing, which we can fund by withdrawing the cash we were spending on village schools and agribusiness which Fair Ttrade doesn't require us to do.

Only problem is of course that Fair Ttrade won't certify our farmers. The email suggested that we switch to Ghana. I expect that (a) that producer already sells all their production and (b) they aren't suggesting that as the sole customer of the farms we use in Ivory Coast that we just withdraw and leave them without work? And why won't they certify our farmers? Not because we don't pay them enough - the hike in cocoa prices saw to that. I think the accusation is that our poor pay forces their children into slave labour - well again we're paying them way more than the Ffair trade minimum price was before, so that isn't true any more is it?

If Ffair Ttrade are now saying they will certify anyone then thats a big step forward. Are they saying the same thing about coffee? With respect to the poster above talking about a doubling in Fair Trade volumes, an increase from a drop in the ocean to two drops is hardly a major development. They need to start certifying the 95% of annual coffee volume produced from ineligable plantations.

Firstly, this link shows how Nestle score 0.5 out of 20 for being one of the worst companies in the world for their treatment of people, animals and the planet. And it is all true, if it wasn't Nestle would be sueing them. So this will hopefully remove any doubt about Nestle and their policies.

www.ethiscore.org/scoretable.aspx?id=214970&free=true

And here is my reply to iworkfornestle:

It would be helpful if you had read the reply properly. The Fairtrade foundation said all the farms could be certified but Nestle, Cadbury etc choose not to go Fairtade.
Fairtrade requires that a social premium is paid on top of the guarenteed price enabling the communities to have access to clean water, schooling, medicine etc which at a guess - I'd say would be a lot higher than the token effort that Nestle is making.
Fairtrade will certify Nestle farmers if they asked for it.
Much of your cocoa will come from Ghana and
Dave Goodyear was giving that as an example not saying that is the only place where Fairtrade exisits.
Nestle (or Cadbury) do not pay over and above the Fairtrade premium.
Nestle have a Fairtrade coffee so there is the proof that they can be certified.
Nothing you said makes any sense or holds any truth.
I suggest that you ring the Fairtrade foundation and the Ethical consumer, find out the truth for yourself, then go back to
Nestle and ask them to stop being so dishonest with their employees. I also think you should get your statements right before putting comments about Fairtrade on any chat website as writing incorrect information could put people off buying Fairtrade products which would be bad news for all the farmers who are surviving because of Fairtrade sending even more people into poverty.