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Ethical living

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Original poster

not flying - am I the only one with a hairshirt?

47 replies

greenwitch · 28/04/2008 18:25

Dear fellow greenies

I haven't flown in 2.5 years. Pre-baby I've been to Scotland, Paris, Italy on the train (overnight sleeper from Paris - lovely journey). With child and husband we've been to to Scotland a few times and memorablt to Geneva - that was quite a trying journey.

But what I want to know is - is it worth it? Is anyone else trying not to fly? Should I bother, or have 1 or 2 guilt free flights a year? It would make life easier, as my in-laws are 500 miles away in Scotland.

Love to hear from you
Green witch

OP posts:

sarah293 · 29/04/2008 18:25

This reply has been deleted

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Minum · 29/04/2008 18:27

BrownSuga I totally take your point, but feel the opposite - I am a keen recycler, only eat local food, cycle everywhere etc, but of course it takes continual effort throughout the year to make those carbon savings - I can't bear the thought of undoing the good achieved by all that effort by going on one flying trip.

thehouseofmirth · 29/04/2008 19:20

We have hardly ever flown and haven't flown anywhere now for 3 years. This year we are attempting London to Italy by train with our 3 year old which I'm hoping will be more of an adventure than nging around in airports for hours and wondering if our luggage will turn up. Of course I may be wrong...

kategarden · 29/04/2008 19:39

IMO it is really, truly, definitely not worth flying. We were part of a very full on environmental footprinting study (done as part of a phD) that looked at everything we did right down to the weight of clothes that we'd bought in the year. DH had flown one way from Spain back to the UK (we were selling our house, it was 3 days before xmas, and all the trains were booked solid).
The environmental impact of that one flight was huge compared to everything else that we had done that year - the only comparable thing was buying a large trailer (lots of steel) and that will last us for years.
Its true that trains have an impact too - but significantly less than flying. And it is just so easy to travel so far by plane.
I don't feel that this is a hairshirt attitude - I reckon that I'd rather spend my life doing something I like doing, and not live for 2 weeks out of 52 'escaping'.

MummyToOneForNow · 29/04/2008 23:00

I haven't flown in a couple of years (have been on Eurostar to Paris and a couple of UK holidays by car). We generally try to avoid it these days largely because of the environmental impact but would expect to do one long-haul avery 4/5 years or so as dh has relatives on the other side of the world. I didn't go on a plane until I was 19 - all our family holidays were by car/boat/train (some UK but also Southern France, Spain and Italy). Much prefer train travel to air and I think it is easier with children - we always saw it as an adventure, followed our progress on maps etc.

yurt1 · 29/04/2008 23:03

I haven't flown in 9 years. DH has flown home for funerals/christenings etc.

We couldn't put autistic ds1 on a plane anyway - so it's not entirely green, but I would only fly if I had to now.

millie865 · 30/04/2008 20:09

We have stopped flying for holidays. To be honest with a toddler it's easier not to fly anyway because they need so much stuff. I don't know how I'll feel when flying would be less hastle!

I've often got cheaper train ticket by getting a ticket to a station half way along the route and then a second ticket (on the same train) from that station to the destination. I have saved over £100 that way. You need to do a bit of playing about with different options. Another tip is to look at tickets to a station further along the line, which can be cheaper. You're not actually allowed to get off the train early (!), but if you buy a single from the last station you go through before getting off to your destination station as well then you can show that when you leave the station.

sushistar · 25/05/2008 23:28

I don't fly. Havn't for 4 years. Hope to never fly again. My family live in the uk, and I think I object morally to flying to a holiday when I could get the train to france or somewhere in the uk.
I'd like to go to ireland one day - that will be a long journey cos it'l be train/car then ferry.
But really I think flying should be for necessity only...

GrimmaTheNome · 25/05/2008 23:54

My DD is 9 and hasn't even got a passport yet... I can't understand why people take small kids abroad. I can't remember much about holidays when I was young, can you? Theres so many great places in the UK. We've not even
got to Scotland yet ...

We will probably fly for a holiday abroad when she's old enough to really appreciate somewhere like Pompeii or Greece. I don't get enough vacation to spend days travelling.

Used to fly regularly to West Coast for work. haven't needed to for 7 years with improvements in internet etc.

Othersideofthechannel · 26/05/2008 12:41

I was wondering about this over the weekend and have just discovered this thread:

If you want to holiday at the other end of the country you live in and the options are a long drive in your car which would otherwise not be moving or flying on a plane which is going to fly whether you are on it or not?

Othersideofthechannel · 26/05/2008 12:42

Oops, is it really preferable not to fly, I mean?

sushistar · 26/05/2008 17:12

Flying is so much more polluting than driving that yes, it really is preferable not to fly. Especially if your car is full (ie there's more than one person in it). Flights that are consistantly under subscribed will be cancelled by airlines, so if you do not use them you are bringing us all one step close to having one less regular flight, a Good Thing when it comes to climate change.

Of course, you could always take the train...

Othersideofthechannel · 26/05/2008 18:34

Yes, I was thinking about this since my post and figured out it was more about taking a stand and the drip, drip effect of there eventually being less flights.

It doesn't really apply to us anyway as DH is scared of flying and only does it when no alternative (ie cross atlantic to see family once every four years or so)

Blondilocks · 26/05/2008 19:15

Hmm, I'm not convinced that trains or boats are much more environmentally friendly. Or 100+ cars doing the same journey that a plane could do.

sushistar · 26/05/2008 21:22

According to this calculator this is how they compare for a trip for London to Glasgow

The emissions per person for this journey with one traveller would be:
166.31 kgs of CO2 by Plane
99.78 kgs of CO2 by Car
22.17 kgs of CO2 by Train, or
42.13 kgs of CO2 by Bus

If 2 of you travelled, emissions per person:
166.31 kgs of CO2 by Plane
49.89 kgs of CO2 by Car
22.17 kgs of CO2 by Train, or
42.13 kgs of CO2 by Bus

Planes emit their gas at high altitude, which makes the gas more dangerous (it's not going to be absorbed by plants or the sea up there). As you can see, the more people you put in a car, the more climate efficient it gets.

Driving to see your relatives is better than flying, but worse than getting the train.

janeite · 26/05/2008 21:26

I've flown once (just up to Edinburgh) since dd1 was born 13 years ago. We're off to Greece this year; we decided our carbon footprints have been good over the years so we're allowing ourselves a trip! Usually when we go to Scotland we get the train (once a year) as we're lucky in that our girls have always loved long train journeys. We don't drive either.

Cadmum · 26/05/2008 21:37

My question will sound naive and I should probably just google but I'll ask anyhow: if the plane flies half empty are there fewer carbon emissions?

We have been living far from family and friends for 9 years and we tend to fly home once every 2 years. I suppose it is ignorant of me to think that it is OK because the plane is flying whether we are on it or not.

sushistar · 26/05/2008 21:59

The emissions would be virtually the same if the plane was full of people than if it was empty. The idea that 'it would fly anyway' is true in an individual sense - it would - but it is because EVERYONE thinks that way that there are so many flights. Each person who chooses not to fly makes each flight less cost effective for the airline. If it stops being cost effective, they'll cancel it. Simple as that.

It's the same logic as someone visiting a beauty spot and dropping a crisp packet, because just one won't be noticed. It's true, but if everyone did it there would be LOTS of litter and the beauty spot would be ruined. We must each take responsibility for our little piece of the whole.

podsquash · 27/05/2008 12:58

I have close family overseas in Canada and the States and have decided that flying to see them is ok. Obviously we only do it every couple of years or so mainly because of the cost and the hassle but I think that family ties are so important and I'm not depriving my children of that. However, we holiday in the UK otherwise (and usually within about 3 hours drive of home!) and will probn aim to avoid flying as much as possible as we venture further afield. So I don't feel bad about the odd long haul flight - that is how my family is set up and I've made my peace with it.

Btw, I have a single friend who gave up flying and went to Georgia in the Former Soviet Union by train to see a friend and it took him 5 days there and 5 days back. Imagine that with little kids!

Cadmum · 27/05/2008 15:52

Thanks sushistar. I see the logic now.

Blondilocks · 27/05/2008 20:18

I've only ever been on a few flights where the plane was pretty empty.

Most of the people I know (other than me) drive a petrol car with a 1.8 engine or larger so the car statistics on the London to Glasgow journey aren't much higher than the plane.

166.31 kgs of CO2 by Plane
138.59 kgs of CO2 by Car

sushistar · 27/05/2008 22:19

Blondi, usually those figures are based on a car with one person in it, but are per person for the plane. So if you fly a family of four to Glasgow, you multiply the plane figure by 4. But you divide the car figure by 4. Therefore for holidays, driving IS usually MUCH better than flying, if the train is not an available option.

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