Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Ethical living

Discover eco friendly brands and sustainable fashion on our Ethical Living forum.

Does anyone agree with Tony Blair on Nulcear power?

98 replies

rosycheek · 18/05/2006 13:54

I'm finding it very hard to understand why anyone would want to build more nuclear power stations. They may reduce CO2 but then you are left with radioactive waste!!

We live on an island FFS. We are surrounded by all this natural energy. Is it just people's NIMBY 'ism that it stopping us from harnessing it? What it so wrong with wind farms ...at least you can remove them with out leaving future generations with the problem of radioactive waste.

Am I in the minority with this, or do people think nuclear is the way to go?

BTW, I love the environment topic, feel much better now for my rant!

OP posts:
Uwila · 23/05/2006 14:18

Ah, but remember that the British build their nuclear plants to higher standards than Chernobyl... and I bet the Russians will too in the future. This is of course no consolation to those whose lives were destroyed. But, it is worth pointing out that the British will build to higher standards.

There is a reactor being built in Finland (article referenced below) that is meant to withstand an aircraft flying into it (not sure if I believe this claim) but that's what they say.

ruty · 23/05/2006 14:45

hmmm - very reassuring. Not. Wink

Uwila · 23/05/2006 15:32

This might interest you guys...

Shell joins the party for a GBP273m stake in biodiesel
[Evening Standard]
Evening Standard via NewsEdge Corporation :

ANGLO-Dutch oil giant Royal Dutch Shell is part of a consortium believed to have paid up to e400 million (GBP273 million) for a stake in one of the world's leading biodiesel makers.

DaimlerChrysler and Volkswagen have joined Shell to invest in German firm Choren, with the funds helping to finance the building of a refinery capable of producing 250 million litres of the biofuel annually. It should be operating by 2007 and four further facilities are planned. Choren claims to have unique technology for producing biodiesel from virtually any plant material, including wood.

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 23/05/2006 17:48

A discussion of "global cutting back" is central to the arguemnent, as it is an alternative option to using nuclear. We need to work out if we can cut back and then use renewables, perhaps some biodiesal, to make up the rest of our energy supply. Only if that won't work do we need nuclear power.

I'm optimistic that we can cut back significantly. I think business bears the brunt of the responsibility but so, tbh, do we.

Because I think a lot of the problem is "global wastefulness" I think nuclear power is unecessary and I resent introducing nuclear power to our country because people want to drive down to the local shop in their 4 mph SUVs.

Think China, India etc are a problem but not yet. Theres scope for prevention there. We don't have to assume they'll go the same way as America. They do have a very different culture and ethos.

Oil is meant to peak in around 2010, then it declines. No, it doesn't mean it all runs out suddenly, thats not what a peak is. It does meant there will be increasing shortages. If you don't believe that will happen, best of luck to you!

Think biodiesel is not the answer in the long term, it has huge environmental problems of its own, but it has a few significant advantages, particually that it shouldn't cause so much global warming. (its taking carbon from the biosphere not geosphere cycle, coal takes it from the geosphere at a masively increased rate, sending the system way out of whack)

Think it can be a useful cushion as our oil runs out.

The problem with SUVs is that they are part of the Western entitlement approach that got us here in the first place.

Oh, and everything is energy, by the way, DC!. You, me, the sun, light, microwaves, everything is energy in some form or another!

zippitippitoes · 23/05/2006 18:08

WWF commissioned a report as part of its climate change campaign which concludes that it is possible to reduce carbon emmissions without nuclear power stations being built

""Fairly modest measures to reduce the growth in electricity demand and increase renewable energy to 25 per cent by 2025 could help the power sector to reduce emissions by 55 per cent from 1990 levels, according to the report. In contrast, under current 'business as usual'' policies, the power sector's emissions would be reduced by just 18 per cent by 2025. Both these scenarios require a high dependence on imported gas, but the 'business as usual' scenario would require considerably more gas because the total demand for electricity would be higher. ""

\link{http://www.wwf.org.uk/filelibrary/pdf/summary_of_ilex.pdf\ summary of the report}

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 23/05/2006 18:28

very interesting link, ztt

zippitippitoes · 23/05/2006 18:31

they are dead set against the Severn Barrage before anyone points this out to me! Grin

gothicmama · 23/05/2006 18:32

soory to butt in did you know there is 20 years uranium supply left so why build nuclear anyway -

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 23/05/2006 18:59

is that so, gm? I didn't know that!

Wonder if fission is the way forward? Not at the moment, obviously, as it takes more energy than it provides! Its always seen as safe, but the sun is a huge fission reactor and actually, it emits some nasty rays. Am just pondering, anyone else have any thoughts?

gothicmama · 23/05/2006 19:16

i tend to think bio fuel as a way forward but think society has progressed to a place where this would not be feasible, similar wind and wave power and solar is probably not a reliable source of fuel so that does tend to leave a reduction in industrialisation (have we got the skills to survive ) or fast nuclear reactors which are dirtier and less safe . I really can not see a way forward but equally can not imagine being without power (would miss mn)

Uwila · 23/05/2006 20:00

Eh? You think oil is going to peak in 2010? In four years? Errrrr.... I'll need some convincing. I'm not saying our oil and gas reserves are infinite. But 4 years is unbelieveable. Where did you get this estimate?

SenoraPostrophe · 23/05/2006 20:10

actually I think you'll find that the oil and gas supply has already peaked. doesn't mean it'll run out horrifically soon though.

anyway nuclear. I think it was wrong of tb to pre-empt the coming report and I also shiver at the bit where he said something about speeding up planning preocedures (that'll be just ramming the things through then) I don't think a return to nuclear is completely out of the question, but it is not a decision that should be taken lightly.

Now alternatives: dc - that's not the first time you've slagged off biofuels but I still haven't seen any good reason as to why they're so bad. also don't see what's so wrong with wind farms (OK so they need some oil, but I am pretty certain they need rather a lot less oil than an oil fired power station. what's the problem?) But there are no quick fixes. what we really need to do is get radical with energy efficiency.

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 23/05/2006 20:25

As far as I can work out SP the problem with biofuels is that the the sheer amount required to replaced current oil is absolutely huge, unless we cut back, and so it is impossible to produce the amounts we need without using up vast swathes of rainforest. It mainly comes from rape, which is for reasons I can't recall (I think to do with biodiversity) not a fanatastic crop to cover huge amounts of our planet with.

I actually think its a mistake to see it as this black and white, I think biofuels do actually have a place in cushioning the oil drop off. And some biofuel is made from waste oil like chip fat (only about 1 / 350th though.

And burning anything produces water vapour, which contributes to global warming.

DominiConnor · 23/05/2006 21:17

just imagine what WOULD happen (remember Chernobyl?
It will happen. It will be bad. As it happens pat of my education was on fallout. Basically you can't get Chernobyl except under a socialist government. No sane person builds reactors like that.
It was built pretty much to the standards of a light industrial building, rather than to the (hoped) standard of being able to take a direct impact from a 747.
But you can get all sorts of other nasties, most likely we will will have a cooling failure. This will kill thousands, including the workers.

Is that a risk we are really willing to take?
We accept greater risks all the time.
More than 5,000 are killed on the roads every year. Smoking and booze kill vastly more.

Not having a high quality energy source would be far far worse. Ever been to the Lake district ?
Go up the highest hill you can find.
Focus on an imaginary point two miles up in the air. That was the surface of the ice.

Yes planning procedure will need to be fixed.
The straight version is that all they do is waste time, the government never changes it's mind.
You don't like it ? vote them out, plenty of loonies like the BNP, NF, LibDems and Greens who hate nuclear.

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 23/05/2006 21:24

"Basically you can't get Chernobyl except under a socialist government"

and

"plenty of loonies like the BNP, NF, LibDems and Greens who hate nuclear"

Well thats a hugely well reasoned arguement you've got there, DC, think we may have to agree to disagree.

But in the interim here's some \link{http://www.hymn.ru/internationale/index-en.html\music}

(dd seems to quite like the billy bragg-that pinko!-version. )

DominiConnor · 24/05/2006 01:05

No oneexcept socialist governments has ever built a reactor that size without a containment vessel. This is not hard to spot. Western reactors have the bulbous blobs. Huge thick concrete, things.
Socialist ones were built in office blocks, and for a while in planes. Yes really. Horrid scary things they were.

The nationlistic parties have long had deep ecological concerns, and really hate globalisation, A lot.
The LibDems are the largest party that oppose nuclear weapons and power.

Uwila · 24/05/2006 06:57

Somebody please state your source on when/how/if oil is going to "peak". It is not simply a matter of how much existts minus how much we have used. As exploration and development technologies develop, we are able to extract oil that was previously unaccessible (for example deep water, weather, and civil wars are common obstacles to extracting oil).

So, where are these stimates coming from? We are most certainly too dependant on fossil fuels and should explore other option. But, going round saying that we are going to peak in this decade or that we already have peaked sounds to me like bunny hugger scare tactics.

zippitippitoes · 24/05/2006 07:09

"peak oil" is a controversial topic too..

here is something about it but lots available from different quarters

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4077802.stm\ BBC summarises some of the discussion on paek oil June 2005}

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 24/05/2006 08:14

yes, CD I'm not disputing that the green and lib dems obejct to nuclear power, I'm objecting to them being called loonies on those grounds.

Chernobyl wasn't in an office blook. It just wasn't.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_accident#Causes

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 24/05/2006 08:14

yes, CD I'm not disputing that the green and lib dems obejct to nuclear power, I'm objecting to them being called loonies on those grounds.

Chernobyl wasn't in an office blook. It just wasn't.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_accident#Causes

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 24/05/2006 08:14

yes, CD I'm not disputing that the green and lib dems obejct to nuclear power, I'm objecting to them being called loonies on those grounds.

Chernobyl wasn't in an office blook. It just wasn't.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_accident#Causes

FillyjonktheSnibbet · 24/05/2006 08:15

Well I don't know what just happened there, sorry. Anyway, here's a good article on peak oil. There are plenty of other sites out there but,to be fair, this gives both sides.

\link{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil\description}

Uwila · 24/05/2006 10:10

\link{http://www.gnn.tv/forum/thread.php?id=7087\Daniel Yergin's view of Peak Oil theory}

Daniel Yergin's view is one I would greatly respect. However, you can find plenty on the other side of the debate who don't agree.

zippitippitoes · 24/05/2006 10:12

It was a similar story with coal ..I think the first discussion of coal running out was about 1845

DominiConnor · 24/05/2006 10:32

I said it was built to the standard of an office block. I read the article you cite, and it lacks a picture of the building. Wikipedia talks of many other dumb things they did but google on Chernobyl containment , and you will find literally hundred of sources talking of the lack of such a thing. My college's old reactor is now used for explosive research, and it was only 40 Kw.

As for China etc, I'm less relaxed about their timesscales. They are growing exponentially, and in all countries we see that energy consumption goes up with economic growth.
Depending upon whose numbers you believe, China will have about the same energy consumption as the whole EU in 10-15 years. Some put it catching up with the USA in 20.
Personally I don't think that will happen since I simply can't see how you can have a modern socialist country, and thus expect China to go through severe disruption. (as in revolution, civil war etc).
India on the other hand has advanced to a resilient democracy, has the rule of law (mostly), more English speakers than the USA, and it's educated workers fromp places usch as the IITs are so good that western banks send raiding parties over to offer then large piles of money.

Swipe left for the next trending thread