The Abortion Debate [cont.]

[Empusa]

I never got an answer to my question, and I thought it'd be interesting.

Bearing in mind the pro-lifers have been telling us that abortion is murder, I thought it'd be interesting to get their point of view on this. A bill passed in Utah about charging women for illegal abortion or forced miscarriage.

Do you agree with this?

What do you think of this - "In addition to criminalizing an intentional attempt to induce a miscarriage or abortion, the bill also creates a standard that could make women legally responsible for miscarriages caused by "reckless" behavior. "

How does this article sound to you?

"Life can't get much worse for Christine Taylor. Last month, after an upsetting phone conversation with her estranged husband, Ms. Taylor became light-headed and fell down a flight of stairs in her home. Paramedics rushed to the scene and ultimately declared her healthy. However, since she was pregnant with her third child at the time, Taylor thought it would be best to be seen at the local ER to make sure her fetus was unharmed.

That's when things got really bad and really crazy. Alone, distraught, and frightened, Taylor confided in the nurse treating her that she hadn't always been sure she'd wanted this baby, now that she was single and unemployed. She'd considered both adoption and abortion before ultimately deciding to keep the child. The nurse then summoned a doctor, who questioned her further about her thoughts on ending the pregnancy. Next thing Taylor knew, she was being arrested for attempted feticide. Apparently the nurse and doctor thought that Taylor threw herself down the stairs on purpose."

I don't disagree with your views; they might not be mine, but I have no right to disagree with what you do with your body. But they aren't coherent, and when you make statements such as 'abortion can lead to major psychological trauma' you are seeking to influence women via a the threat of a syndrome that is unproven and unrecognised by the Amaerican Psychological Association, among others.

Please don't assume that those with pro-choice views are ignorant as to the procedures used. It's very insulting. You use the term 'foetus'. Most abortions in the UK are carried out at the embryonic stage: from the most recent figures, 73% of all UK abortions were carried out before 10 weeks; even allowing for the shift to a foetus, 90% were before 13 weeks.

Don't get me started on that blog you posted - I fail to see what telling a pregnant mother who does not want to remain pregnant that her embryo has fingers (given that so many abortions are so early, in fact, it's doubtful that most embryos would have lost the webbing) would do, other than attempt to guilt her into remaining pregnant. I also think the NHS link is a red herring - the NHS pays my dentist, but he doesn't force me to have root canals I don't want and don't need in order to get paid.

If you don't agree with it, fine: it's your choice. But don't base your disagreement on shonky statistics and mispresentations.

Not even the US National Cancer Institute believes there is a link between breast cancer and induced abortions. That particular myth has been debunked by numerous scientific studies.

I think you need to examine the difference between evidence and propoganda.

"but you don't seem to have any insight into why my argument also might be coherent and worthy of respect"

Because so far your argument hasn't been coherent.

"It can lead to major psychological trauma"

So can giving birth, even in some cases where the baby was wanted. Unfortunately almost everything comes with that risk.

"I would challenge anyone with pro-choice views to look up a video of abortion, or even images or aborted foetuses, on the internet."

You're assuming we haven't.

"abortion clinics don't want women to see an ultrasound image of their foetus because if they did, most would choose not to destroy it."

Don't want? Or is it that it isn't necessary. What would you say the main point of the ultrasound? Because as far as I'm aware, it's to check the health of the foetus. Why is that needed? Why show that to a woman about to undergo an abortion?

I;m still curious as to how you can believe that abortion is the taking of another living beings life (aka murder) but disagree with the articles I linked to which punish these murderers?

RE the blog posted.

why should a woman having an abortion be told any of the following by the person doing the scan?

Will you tell the mother whether there is a heartbeat?
Will you tell the mother whether the child has a brain?
Will you tell the mother whether the child has a limbs and fingers and fingernails?
Will you tell the mother whether the child has ears eyes and a nose?
Will you tell the mother which internal organs of the child are functional?
Will you tell the mother the gender of the foetus if that is discernable?

Question 18 is surely just stupid "18) Would you carry out an abortion if the stated reason given by the woman was that she wanted a boy, and this foetus is a girl?" the abortion law doesn't allow babies to be aborted because of sex in this country.

Also - that blog does very little to dispel the myth that all pro-lifers are religious nutcases.

I've just read that Finnish article and I note that they do not take into account the socio-economic background of the women. The study itself notes this, and says:

'It is unlikely that induced abortion itself causes death due to injury; instead, it is more likely that induced abortions and deaths due to injury share common risk factors.'

ie: the same factors that may cause a woman to seek an abortion are also likely to cause her to harm herself, or lead her to be placed in situations in which harm may be done to her. The study does not suggest that the abortion causes the harm.

The sample is also 212 deaths after pregnancy (all types, including abortion), of which 81 (34.3%) women died in the year following giving birth, and 92 (43.4%) after what they call an 'induced abortion'. My maths is admittedly pretty poor, but that does not stack up to an increased risk of 248% of suicide, accidental death, or homicide.

This article is freely available on the internet.

Pmsl at the Finnish study. Just imagining why the rate of homicide might be higher if you've had an abortion... Is it because you walk out of the abortion clinic and get shot by a so-called pro-lifer?

On a more serious note, nationaltruss, do you not think that the reason the abortion clinics don't show women ultrasounds of embryo/foetus/baby is because the vast majority of women having an abortion know exactly what they are doing, and to what, and they don't need to be reminded at that stage? Unless of course you think it is ok to guilt trip someone into keeping a baby that they don't want? And don't even get me started on the psychological damage that could do to a woman who is terminating for medical reasons....

I honestly don't understand how pro-lifers can paint themselves as being the caring faction in all of this, when the majority seem to have absolutely no sense of empathy at all.

i had an ultrasound at a MS clinic, and asked them to let me see (which they did, reluctantly) my 5 week old embryo (or, as i thought of it, 'baby'). i needed to make it real for myself in order to make the decision.

i also tortured myself for several days reading exactly the kind of descriptions nationaltruss is talking about, which are freely available on the internet.

i am pretty sure i'm not unusual in that.

but i still knew, with great sadness, that abortion was the 'best' of a my limited and all bad options at the time.

Whilst the subject of the OP is utterly reprehensible, and the abuse of a bill, I take issue with:-

'Access to abortion is famously difficult in the US'

I live in Virginia. I found absolutely no difficulty whatsoever in finding an abortion clinic (not planned parenthood) and obtaining an abortion. I was shocked actually how easy it was for people to have them - and the abuse of the service. I went there twice - once for myself after a heart breaking decision had to be made when a condom and morning after pills failed to work on us, and once with a friend who thought she was pregnant. The first time I was distraught, but the waiting room was full of young, black women (I am not stereo-typing this - every other woman there was a black teenager) and all were joking and laughing together. The second time I went I sat outside for my friend, and listened aghast as the parents of the girls who were that days patients discussed proudly how many times they had been there, how virile their daughter's partners were, how the men couldn't use a condom because they were so well hung. it sickened me, with all the other mothers acting respectful of the one who claimed it was her 5th trip with her 17 year old.

I think there is must be a social demographic that sees abortion as proof of virility and also wealth, since the abortions were not cheap - I paid $500 for my two pills. I think that issue needs addressing with better educating, and that if abortion was slightly harder to access this worrying trend would stop.

I have regretted my decision daily since my abortion. I was very pro choice before, now I am still pro choice, but within reasonable boundaries. Even whilst regretting my choice I still know that it was the right decision for me. I feel that I killed my baby and I have to live with that feeling. I also feel that I saved my family and know that I wouldn't have my younger child if I hadn't done it.