McCartney and Stone / E M Management and First Port

[carer5]

Please can someone who is in the position of caring for loved one who lives in one of these properties in the U.K., respond? My family and I are stretched beyond measure as we age, and care for others in family as well as a parent.
What I feel is immoral is the unethical way these flats are run by, rather dubious and, questionable management CO’s who charge so much for ground rent, and service charges, then, when one is ageing as one does have little provision for the future of those very leaseholders who bought into a falsehood of ‘ retirement’ living ( which may last five to ten yrs if one is lucky to live on, in relatively good health and my own parent, has lived beyond that in fact ). The idea of truly investing in one’s long term retirement is all about being healthy and, the organisations expect one to be independent ( until the day comes, when one becomes ill and, the management rather hope you’ll expire, or go into the usual route - out, ‘ the care home ‘ when more and more people are actually STAYING IN THEIR HOMES AND CHOOSING TO HAVE CARERS COME IN as a model, in the country. This is a model the govt want; however, extra care leaseholds don’t get promoted, developed or, sold in the same way as the independent living properties I have found out.
I care, and have help with an older brother who is also part of that care, with another sibling. Like most people, I am semi retired and working til I drop prob! However, I am disabled myself and don’t know what will occur as I age? Sounds frightening.
I know much is dependent on leasehold law changing, more promptly than is currently occurring and, my own role as a carer who comes and goes to care around life elsewhere but, may be needed more over time in one location?
I need some legal, and professional advice and have sought this - but, on going.
Leases with restricted clauses on sub letting for a carer / loved one, and service charges with ground rent, plus, will provision ( distribution of assets across one’s family ), all serve to complicate the process of actually managing the property on one’s lifetime. The solicitor’s are having a field day with these homes ( if you can call them such - more like Loan Homes ). Carers can come and go if paid, but one can’t have a live in carer if one even had that space to avail to a paid carer; or, a family member or, friend / companion as the lease is in question. How does this fair? Legally, and it is a question of legality, more and more people as I say, choose to remain their own homes and not go into a private or, state run institution to be cared for which is what the govt is encouraging anyway ( there won’t be ENOUGH care homes to accommodate the needy from now, anyway ). So, the likes of these mercenary commercially driven enterprises, who are falling below expectations as more people choose not to buy into leasehold in any respect, need to be guided by a change in the law to protect the elderly, ageing or similar vulnerable party,
if anyone can help me with this having been through it…please reach out to me. [Email address redacted by MNHQ]
Thank you.

Hi. I could have written similar myself - my mum lives in one of these place ( they’re just increasing the service charges) and I want to investigate what’s going on as it seems like a very cosy seeming scam to her and me - I will email you

Same here. DM lives in one. The warden has been off sick for several months and they haven’t replaced him but there’s been no decrease in the management fees.
Hers is a relatively old flat and I’m dreading the time after DM passes aeay (she’s 90) because I don’t think we’ll be able to sell it and we’ll be stuck paying the fees for an empty flat.

They paying fees when it’s empty is the same where my mum lives. They do let people wait until the flats been sold though so at least relatives don’t have to pay it. At the moment they’re trying to get the fees put up to about £900 a month. It’s hard to see where exactly the money goes apart from more building work for these flats.

Search under M and Stone. There are several long running threads on here re this issue.

As it is a public forum I would suggest taking your personal email address off your original post.

But yes, these are run as for profit property companies, care is not their priority and there are multiple examples of "promised care facilities" being downgraded, removed or under staffed. Equally most places refuse to deal with more complex care. I had an Aunt move into one, but when it came to sell after she passed the on site care home had closed (thankfully she never needed it) and it was run by skeleton staff. It tool 4 years to sell and by the time it sold all her money had been used to service the property and in solicitors fees. Goodness knows what she would have done if she needed regular care.

I enquired recently about buying a flat but will not go ahead after reading this. They use high pressure sales and I get e-mails from them at least 3 times a week.

They hate bad publicity more than anything; you are very articulate, so maybe use this to help your parent.

Hello @carer5 to protect your privacy, we've removed your email address.

I wonder if there’s a Facebook group for people wanting to sue these management companies for some of these restrictive practices, I agree the barrier to subletting for carers or renting out is particularly stupid.

I mean, they know what they’re doing; there is a narrow market for these properties and they don’t want their expensive brochures of laughing 65 year olds in cruise wear carrying golf clubs to be spoiled when buyers come round by seeing actual ageing and care going on. The warden’s main job at my mum’s development seemed to be to look out for cognitive decline and start the process of getting people out before they messed the place up.

As an x development manager in a retitement site I would encourage all to learn how to read leases and budgets.

I have so often had complaints about how the management company are making "loads of cash" and how " we are paying your wage" yet the management fee is often a small % of the budget. There are so many legal issues that has to be paid for. Rent, insurance (where there are very few insurance companies that will insure so they can hike their prices) lift inspections x 6 a year legally, emergency lights inspections x 13 a year (monthly and anual) EET testing, AOV testing, legionella testing, washing machine and tumble drier testing (x2 a year) Fire Risk Assesments, accounts and much more. None of this comes cheap. Most places also doesnt pay the development managers wage they pay a service charge that includes a subline of a wage as legally the companies have to explain what the budget consists off, however this doesnt =they pay the wage. Usually they pay the service charge for the place to 1 company who then engages another company to manage and then they may have a 3rd company to do the everyday running.

Leases show what you can and can't do. Some places do permit live in Carers others do not. I have had family members expect me to go check twice a day on their family member/ drive them to gp or hospital appointments, sort their online payments (not the DMs role and the last one could lead me to serious issues) and some be quite abusive when I said no. All for near minimum wage.

Leases people havent read then they get angry when it doesnt go as they feel it "ought" Again I have had people expect me to sort their plumbing, electricity, radiators , water. Inside their flat as "thats what they paid me for" (no its not its to manage all that stuff I mentioned in the budget)

Even when a building is empty it requires insurance and when you buy a flat/house like this you cant get an insurance that cuts out the empty flat/house you have to insure the entire estate, nor can you switch of electricity in communal areas as that flat is empty. Or not do all those tests mentioned for the years it is empty. This is showing in the leases and should not be a surprise to anyone once it is requested.

Now would I move into one myself? Absolutely not, but nor would I move into an estate with a service charge. I read the leases I understand what is asked within this legal document. If people would do this and also go through the budgets. Then I think they would be a lot more satisfied with what they purchase as they walked in with their eyes open.

Having said that I have known people who are happy with their retirement place and who lived in a caring supportive community. That is worth a lot. However for myself I will not retire to such a place. I would however have encouraged my MIL to move into one when FIL passed I think she would have thrived. She also could have afforded it. I think many cannot as they see servuce charge is say £450 a year and forget in 10 years time that may have become £850 to take into account all costs

I'll go against the grain here. We moved In laws into one of these properties in December 2023. Its brand spanking new, lovely place - eye wateringly expensive but near to us, a hospital and doctors within walking distance and on a bus route in a town they used to live in so was all familiar. They needed the move - dementia issues - and they lived in a huge house in the middle of nowhere. They needed some form of assisted living and as we know there are not many cheap options out there. MIL then went into a dementia care home after 6 months and we now have FIL with increasing mixed dementia. To be fair to the management of this place, they have been amazing. They look out for him and we've have administering medication in place and general care duties throughout the day. Of course its expensive but we have peace of mind that there is someone there. He is not ready for a home yet and want to try and give him some independence for as long as possible.

You wrote the job responsibility and, you’re knowledge of the infrastructure adequately. However, it is biased based on that job description in itself, I regret to say.
The reality is people who are seduced by the promotion and, promise of a happy retirement in such an estate have often been unable to SEE A LEASE Nor SPEAK TO A SOLICITOR WHO DEALS WITH CONVEYANCING from the so called, Management infrastructure.
When one is bereaved, elderly and vulnerable like my own mother, the sharks like these CO’s make a killing.
It is immoral, disgusting and people who promote these properties and lifestyles are lying through their mercenary teeth.
My mother is 94; and not sure fait with legal property law practices; who the hell is?
People should be protected from CO’s like these, before they are ALLOWED to sell these misleading, deceitful hidden agenda rabbit holes which are not worth the land they are built on.
Shame on you for being part of that dreadful practice.

I beg to differ.
I have replied.

Sorry you have had a bad experience. It would be amazing if there were centres built centred around care not profit. That said it has been a positive experience for us. My folks moved into one ten years ago. For them it has been great. City centre living, near existing friends, doctors etc and as part of a new community. The tiny walk into town takes ten mins as there are so many people to stop and chat with. It will be a ball ache to sell but will if priced low enough and the reduction of their capital worth it as they have had a decide of secure living while dealing with major health concerns. They understand the negatives but are happy with their choice and it has given me plenty of comfort as I know there is more support and friendship available to them. My and my sister visit often but are a few hours away.

£850 a year?? My mum moved into one costing £5000 a year, even the really tatty one nearest me is over £1000 a year.. Yes the paperwork will tell you the facts on what your development charges and forbids - but the point to me is that no development should be able to forbid things like having a live-in carer. I hope in the future there will be far more of these places run on a cooperative basis so that residents or their appointees can make decisions, or that development permission will be refused in favour of almshouses run in local interests.

How is it biased by the job description. It is the reality of the job.

When you purchase a home you should engage people to ensure you understand the realities of this purchase. Your solicitor is usually this person.

I have stated to read the lease prior to signing and to make yourself familiar with the budgets. This is all stuff you receive prior to a purchase. In my experience perhaps 5% have read the lease. Most have cast a glance to the budget.

I do agree that the sales people are selling a dream. However the sales are rarely done by the managment companies.

In one of the developments i managed all sales were done by estate agents. I know they outright lied to people. Nothing I could do about it as they didn't put it in writing.

In the case of one prospective purchaser I had to outright tell her that her mother with a lot of decline was not a good fit for independent living. She replied "well thats why Im happy you are here so you can keep an eye out." I worked 3 days a week on that site.

Buyer beware but I know people who are very happy in their developments including ms. It’s about checking and double checking the paperwork and ensuring you are buying into a property that is suitable for you. Around half the people at church are in them and their lives are far richer than those stuck alone in houses. Many do have carers coming in. As I say, they vary and that fine print is crucial

I have know service charges from £150 a year to £6000.00 a year I merely picked a random number to demonstrate the increase.

The lease is usually done by the developers. (Who sometimes have to add some specific to get the planning permission) Not the management company often the management company staff would like it change as much as the residents would but they are tied into it as much as the residents.

I think this is an important point to know who to have the issues with.. its so easy to blame the management company. As an example in the development I was in. They had a very old intercom. They could not get it upgraded to digital. When it was announced that analogue would be switched off in December 25. We had to explain they had to go for the upgrade. They insisted the management company were making them do this. However we were not had the analouge not been switched off we would not have reccommended a change of intercom as their old one usually worked ok (some issues it was old but not defunct) residents could not grab their head around it not being the management company because this was where they heard the info from

I do 100% agree with you that a change would be welcome. Also as I said. Iam a previous development manager I no longer work in that job.

I have know service charges from £150 a year to £6000.00 a year I merely picked a random number to demonstrate the increase.

The lease is usually done by the developers. (Who sometimes have to add some specific to get the planning permission) Not the management company often the management company staff would like it change as much as the residents would but they are tied into it as much as the residents.

I think this is an important point to know who to have the issues with.. its so easy to blame the management company. As an example in the development I was in. They had a very old intercom. They could not get it upgraded to digital. When it was announced that analogue would be switched off in December 25. We had to explain they had to go for the upgrade. They insisted the management company were making them do this. However we were not had the analouge not been switched off we would not have reccommended a change of intercom as their old one usually worked ok (some issues it was old but not defunct) residents could not grab their head around it not being the management company because this was where they heard the info from

I do 100% agree with you that a change would be welcome. Also as I said. Iam a previous development manager I no longer work in that job.

30 years a solicitor dealing with elderly clients
Personal I would avoid McCarthy and Stone at all costs

If at all possible it's best to rent such a property rather than buy.

I also suggest the person finds a development run by a charity if some kind. Another avenue to explore is a type of work that the person used to do. Think of Chelsea Pensioners for example. Residents were all in the Services I believe.

Try all of these avenues before a commercial company which is of course aiming to make a profit.

I looked into MCStone properties for a relative

New 350k
Not new 100k in same area
Leasehold, so there were management fees, ground rent fees for communal inside areas & communal gardens
Not allowed to let out property when person dies
Other restrictions
Age restrictions over 55, over 65
Some utility bills
Info is in the small print
New properties always sell at a huge loss

Bought a freehold instead !

I have been looking at this kind of retirement complex in the SE, McC and S among them. To rent a 2 bedroom flat near me is £4,500 per month including service charge. Average rent for a 2. Bed near me is £1100. What would I get for the extra £3,400? It apparently includes 1 hour of cleaning per week (£100 per month?) and heating/lighting to communal areas and a manager. Buying is over £350,000 (average nice 2 bed around £270,000) plus about £2,500 per month service charge. I think this sort of living would really suit me, but the cost would take every penny I have per month and I hoped I would be reasonably well off when retired! And they’d throw me out when and if I go downhill mentally or physically.

As a solicitor who's been dealing with these places for 20 years, I definitely blame the management company.

The service charge details in the lease have to be broad, so that anything that might need doing is covered. Management companies are unregulated. I've seen some ridiculous service charge increases. That's despite the fact that these places often charge a 0.5-1% fee when you sell to go into the maintenance fund.

Honestly Mrs Faustus, I would look at normal flats and buy in services.

I have so much to say on this and not enough time.

However as the previous poster said READ YOUR LEASE.

Management companies can be the problem but please don’t assume that your service charge is going to their pockets. You need to take a very close look at the service charge accounts.

Firstport and Anchor are the worst in my opinion and I have first hand knowledge of both.

Two large retirement homes in my area have taken the RTM route. It’s a lot of work though.