Combining property with (adult) child and care home costs

[tooldforicy]

Just wondering if anyone has any experience of how things work if an elderly parent sells their home to buy a larger home with an (adult) child who will care for them, then later needs to move to a care home?
I currently look after finances for DM. She has mental capacity but has dementia plus some mobility problems and does not want to continue living in her own home (mainly due to delusions). I think we should be looking at a care home as she now needs a lot of help but DB is totally against that and has started to talk to her about potentially selling both their houses to buy a larger home where she can live with his family and they can look after her. The suggestion seems to be that mum will put the funds from her house towards this but the house will not be in her name- the money she puts in will effectively be in return for them caring for her/paying the bills etc. I don't have a particular problem with that as such- I'm not prepared to have her living with me and in any event don't expect there to be anything to inherit after the cost of care if she goes in to a home. Ultimately it's her home/money and her decision. My concern is what would happen if/when at a later date she needs more care than they are willing or able to provide and she needs external carers or to move in to a home. Would this be treated as deliberate deprivation of assets (DB seems sure it's not but thinks this is irrelevant anyway as the purpose is to keep her out of a care home)? My worry is that if it happened concerns about their home would mean they don't seek help when it's needed and/or the whole thing will be a mess that I am then expected to sort out.
I'm not sure I can do much about it, but would like to understand so that I can try to explain it to her and make sure it's flagged at the time. It's not possible to have a sensible discussion with DB as he is very annoyed with me for making it clear that I won't move DM in with me or move in with her full time or part time and is very aggressive every time I have tried to speak to him about alternatives. Unfortunately, DB seems to be in denial about how DM's condition is likely to deteriorate so I suspect he is really not prepared for her to need any more care than she currently does.

This will 100% be classed as depravation as assets with an existing diagnosis if your brother cannot cope and a care home is required down the line.

You say you don’t expect to inherit but there must be a decent amount in the house value so why not look at a care annuity now see how that compares.

You can find specialist financial advisors to help.

This is an example with my Mum in 2020.

House sold £800k no other assets.

Care annuity quote for Dementia and epilepsy at 88 years old. £140k

Care home fees at £1000 a week paid partly by the annuity and partly by her pension. Annuity is inflation linked.

Remaining £660k has been invested and returned over £150k since so effectively mums care has been for free at this point.

Normally when people combine to buy a joint home, they are willing to care till the end, a huge commitment. It sounds like your brother wants the best of both worlds: your mum’s money for a bigger house AND putting her in a care home when it gets too much! Loads of potential problems down the line coming…

This could well be seen as deliberate deprivation of assets. Go to AgeUK's website and read their factsheets. Excellent information about how care is funded and DoA. Facebook group called Safguarding Futures - tons of information and advice there.

Make a bet how long db will last before realising the reality...dementia care is 24 7. Then there is organising the help etc . I guess if he happy to try....but dont engage wirh his criticisms of you

his view is that this is just down to me not planning or explaining things to her properly.

Just say "ok d b. "

That's really interesting. I've been looking on to care home funding and was thinking that a care annuity would be the way forward. My parents took out a loan against the property while ago so after they pay that off I think there would be around £250k, so not enough to leave much if anything for an inheritance but hopefully enough to fund most of her care.
@CeciliaMars The problem is that DB is adamant that DM will never need a care home, so he doesn't think any of this is relevant. Her has only just acknowledged that DM has dementia and won't discuss anything past 'I will never let you shove my mum in a home'. He had a taste of the reality when DM started calling him in the middle of the night when she was hallucinating but he is now convinced that this was just because she was lonely so will be 'fixed' by living with one of us.
As one of the other posters wisely mentioned, I think it is possible that this suggestion is a reaction to my refusal to become mum's carer (which he's made it clear is exactly what he thinks should happen if I wasn't such a selfish cow). However, now the idea is in DM's head I think I have to be prepared to point out the pitfalls. She's not likely to listen but having read all of this I think if they do want to pursue the idea I have an obligation to raise my concerns with the social care team and to insist that she is given independent legal advice.

I guess most of that £250k would be swallowed up with current annuity prices which probably rules that out.

Has your mum set up poa and if so is it activated?

It is a really bad idea for many reasons and should be discouraged. Looking after someone properly with dementia is hard work and very stressful. I've just stopped after doing it for six years living in.

Whatever action is taken, please ensure you have PoAs in place for H&W and Finances before capacity is lost.

@tooldforicy what you need is a legal agreement putting in place as part of this you need to think through life cycle events. These can be hard questions that might make your DB think:

• what happens if DB or partner dies?
• what happens if DB or partner have a serious illness/become disabled?
• what happens if DM does need a care home?
• who will fund carers for DM if all her money is tied up in the house?
• Will DM be expected to contribute to household bills? If so how will this be calculated?
• what is DMs legal status in relation to the house I,e does she have a beneficial interest?
• Would DM be legally entitled to a formal eviction process if DB wants her to move out?

This is just an example but honestly getting a legal professional to draw up an agreement that covers all the potential options can save a lot of issues down the line. Sadly, from personal experience I know when money and inheritance is involved some people can shock you with their behaviour.

There are people who do it, and it can work. I would start by assuming he does have your dm’s best interests at heart; all things being equal, many people would prefer to live with family than go into a care home, and mutual benefit isn’t a bad starting point. So start from the point of view that he does overall have good intentions towards her, however unpleasant he is to you and even with comments about how much he’d like to give up work. You know him and it does sound as if he’s taking this on based on limited information.

What is pretty crazy is that it could potentially save the country a fortune.

It’s a huge risk however given her diagnosis and the fact that it sounds like she’s still quite early in her deterioration and he’s very clearly not fully taking in what dementia care 24/7 actually looks like. As above, he could end up losing his home. Downsizing is not easy.

In my area,£1000 a week is incredibly cheap for a nursing home, especially for dementia care. My mums home is pretty shabby but good, and it’s over £1600 a week. Be very careful about annuity costs - I think I did look into it briefly and mum didn’t gave enough cash.

Id contact Age UK and see if you can face a group meeting with one of their advisers - if they do this paid service in your area. Make sure you all hear the pros and cons together.

He may fondly imagine he would enjoy giving up work and being your DMs full time carer, but the reality will be unbearable and I doubt he will do it for more than a few weeks. If they do go ahead, expect to be called to look after DM frequently so they can go on holiday and - sooner rather than later - being expected to look after her full time. NB I absolutely think full time carers should have breaks, but everything needs to be agreed in advance.