Alcohol

[CanUDigIt]

Moral dilemma or common sense?

If you're old (80s) with medical conditions and medication which mean you shouldn't drink and you are not able to buy your own alcohol, should your partner/family buy alcohol for you if you?

Thinking about someone who now has a pretty reduced life and enjoyed alcohol daily before a hospital admission when they agreed to stop.

Enjoyed alcohol or who is an alcoholic?

I think it is irresponsible to provide alcohol to someone who should avoid it for medical reasons. Even so, I would pour them a small glass of fizz for a toast or similar, or pour a small glass of beer with a curry/BBQ. But, if someone is a known alcoholic, I would not be the person to set them off again. However, there is always someone who will go to the shops for the bottle of sherry or vodka that is requested.
When people arrive in hospital, the doctors are well aware of how many over 60s are habitual and heavy drinkers, and ask those questions. You could warn the staff too, as withdrawal can cause seizures.

@SENMUMwhatnext
Probably a "functioning alcoholic".
Half a bottle of wine each night "with dinner"- "nice drop of red".
A few pints with the rugby at the weekend.

I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions about free choice.

It sort of seems crazy that when you've drank all your life and enjoyed it but it's probably already damaged you, that you stop when it might make you happy and you don't have much to be happy about (degenerative condition) and it's essentially out of your hands because the people caring for you are following the medical rules that you didn't follow when you could choose for yourself.

My mum would buy alcohol for my dad when he had advanced Alzheimer's and could no longer walk to the shop. I disagreed with her. He's now in a nursing home, and they had to put him on a detox programme. I certainly wouldn't be buying it.

@ that's a helpful angle to consider.

I was going to try not to give my own views because I

I think it is up to the carers as they will be held responsible and have to deal with it. Also should the persons degenerative illness be heading towards incontinence alcohol would exacerbate it, the carer will be the one having to clean up. Many functioning alcoholics can be very belligerent.
Do you think the kind thing is to keep the person half pickled, happy and speed them to the end quickly. Alcohol is partly why the person is unable to care for themselves.

I think this: if your parent has capacity sufficient to make the decision to drink alcohol and choose not follow medical advice, understanding the consequences of doing such: then they should be given alcohol.

They're an adult and they get to choose how they want to live regardless of whether it goes against medical advice. That right doesn't change because they are older or less able.

"It sort of seems crazy that when you've drank all your life and enjoyed it but it's probably already damaged you, that you stop when it might make you happy and you don't have much to be happy about (degenerative condition) and it's essentially out of your hands because the people caring for you are following the medical rules that you didn't follow when you could choose for yourself."

This, I think, pretty much sums up my view! I mean if someone is an alcoholic and is abusive, etc that's one thing but in this instance of being a function alcohol I feel like... I mean what are the motivators for giving up at that stage, in your 80s? A lot of people would rather have a couple of years they enjoy than a couple more where the things they enjoy have been removed! So if the person wasn't harming anyone else I would pour them a drink if they wanted one tbh!

Do they have cognitive impairment? You could land yourself in trouble if they're considered not to have capacity, I guess.

Alcohol is a factor in so many falls and injuries in the over 60s.

Sent too soon!

I was going to try not to give my position on this because I genuinely would like to hear a variety of views.

It's my DF. I helped DM get him to go tee-total after a stay in hospital but I don't want alcohol to creep back in over Christmas. I feel like a spoil sport. Then I wondered what the point was. But the nursing home thing is interesting.

As an aside, can people have alcohol in a nursing home?

This is ten years ago, but some patients on our acute dementia ward used to be allowed alcohol, we would measure out a shot of whiskey at evening meds. No idea if this is still a thing as I don't nurse on a ward now.

Important thing is whether your DF has capacity. If he does, then it's not up to you. However if he was a violent alcoholic, I understand your stance.

Yes they can. If they have capacity and someone provides it they can't prevent it. They can advice against it but not stop it.

To be honest if I get to that age I wouldn't care if it will shorten my life, I'd rather enjoy the alcohol. Obviously if they become abusive or aggressive when they've had alcohol that's different.

I'd buy it for him. But then again I am not caring for him, and that is the dilemma really. If his behaviour or illness deteriorates that is putting extra strain on the carer that's not good. But not having it probably makes him grumpy and irascible also.

I think if he tolerates it well in small enough doses let him have it. If it causes mayhem, think again.

My great aunt was a character, she drank like a fish and then got ill and immobile in her later years. My dad would make her an alcoholic drink even though she was told not to. But he just dipped the rim of the glass in the brandy and added ginger ale. Auntie loved it and never complained that it was just a sip really. I think it was more that "she got her way"!

At one point in the last year or so of her life, my elderly mother was drinking nearly a bottle of wine a day. It was probably one of her few remaining pleasures in life. She basically wanted to be dead by that stage anyway, so I would not have tried to stop her for health reasons.

However, after the third or fourth fall which left her on the floor for hours waiting for an ambulance, I had to point out to her that there was a pattern to these falls - in the evening, glass of wine on the table - and when you are in your 80s with severely limited mobility, "just a glass or two" of wine can be the thing that makes the difference between being able to safely shuffle around with a zimmer frame, and tumbling over and then lying in a pool of your own urine for 12 hours until the paramedics arrive.

She stopped drinking, and didn't have any more falls at home, but was miserable, and one of the last things she asked for when she was dying was booze. There's no right or wrong answer to this one.

Without wanting to probe, could you give an idea the nature of the health condition/the medication which means he isn't meant to drink?

They are in their 80’s I’d let them drink only have a year or two left

if they were in their 60’s and had a couple of decades left id encourage healthier habits but id respect their choices

I would buy it for him. He's in his 80s, life doesn't go on forever. It might not be good for his health, but what does that matter at his age.

If I liked drinking and got to my 80s I wouldn't be too fussed about extending my existence by a couple of years if it meant denying myself of things I enjoyed. Even if it caused health issues. Why does it matter at that age. They won't be around forever.

I’d probably see if I could get away with giving them an alcohol free version. I can’t tell the difference in some of the beers or ciders.

Thank you to everyone who has replied.

There are so many factors.

A major consideration is that DM is now DFs carer. DF having alcohol would make DMs life harder as DF would be even less able after a drink.

DM went tee-total in support of DF.

DF doesn't ask for alcohol but still has the same drinking routine- just with 0% wine and beer.

DB is visiting for Christmas and I said we should all be tee-total too as it wouldn't be fair to drink and say DF couldn't but I think if DF had a drink at Christmas he would be back drinking.

I think DM would quite fancy a Christmas tipple with DB but I don't think it would be fair to do it behind DFs back.

DF has Parkinson's, Dementia and Atrial Fibrillation (pacemaker fitted).

It's a difficult one, I think I would start by seeking medical advice.

Half a bottle a night or a few pints with the rugby is hardly alcoholic territory, despite what MN would have you believe (famously puritanical re: alcohol)!

If the poor man has capacity, he must be allowed to make decisions about his own body. It's infantilising him to refuse to allow him something he has chosen to have. You don't have to agree with his decision, but it's his to make.

NB I don't drink at all, so please don't think I'm an alcoholic in denial! I just think MN is far too quick to label fairly common drinking patterns as alcoholism.

If someone is in their 80s and it’s one of their main enjoyments in life I’d let them. Might be the only thing they look forward to these days, seems really shit to stop them.
That said, you do need to take others into consideration in this case, so it’s a tricky one.

I'd be guided by the GP really. If they say 2-3 glasses of wine a week is OK then why not? I know it's linked to dementia, but my uncle who drank daily (quite a lot) and my lifelong teetotaller mother both developed this in their mid 80s and it was equally shit for both of them.