Retirement properties

[rickyrickygrimes]

I’ve got another thread on here about my FIL. Ideally, he would move into some kind of retirement apartment complex, somewhere he has his own space but also company and staff to keep an eye on him. Probably the option of eating / socialising communally would be good.

Retirement apartments seem to have a really bad reputation as an investment. I’m not clear why that is. There isn’t any shortage of older people looking for this kind of living space, and in theory if we / he did buy one it could be rented out of he didn’t live there. Why are they so unpopular and what are the potential pitfalls?

we’re in Scotland btw, not sure if that makes a difference.

Look at the not for profit housing associations like Hanover, Anchor and Abbeyfield. Should be the option to buy or rent.

Avoid the private sector like McCarthy & Stone, Churchill, Peveril who have all sorts of ridiculous clauses.

It would be great if there were more options to rent and live a bit more communally but options seem very limited.

DH and I will buy a small freehold bungalow or rent when the time is right.

The whole sector needs proper regulation

There's very little left that's directly council owned and run. Very area dependent but housing association ones are worth looking at. Look on the local council's website and it should list some providers.

Some will limit to people moving from a council house, others will rent at a much higher rate to someone who owned their own home.

One of my relatives who had been in council housing moved into a housing association one which was amazing. Had own bedroom, living room, bathroom and kitchenette so could make own breakfast and have visitors in private, but a short walk down a corridor to a communal lounge with activities and a dining room where they could get all their meals if wanted. That's a while ago now though!

Yes but no good for the retiree if they then need a care home but the money is all tied up or gobbled up by the retirement place, who profit while the retiree gets basic council funded provision with little choice, at the cost of us, the taxpayer and the privately funded residents.

Exactly this.

Although if you don't mind second hand, they go for ridiculously low prices.

Do check if you end up buying one, even at a lower price secondhand, what restrictions there are on people living there once they require care. Some (many!) wouldn't allow someone with dementia to live there or someone who needed several care visits a day.

They're often aimed at those who can live independently but who don't want the responsibility of a large house or garden to maintain. See all the ads for glamorous 60-something residents laughing over glasses of wine!

FIL is definitely not a 60 something, laughing with a glass of vino! Actually, I just looked through a few and I'm not sure if it's the right option for him now. He'd really struggle to go and sit in an 'on-site bistro' at shared tables when he doesn't know anyone. Even going to a communal living room would be very hard - he's become very conscious of his muffled speech, general frailty etc. He'd actually probably be better in somewhere more institutional tbh, more 'here's your dinner, eat up' rather than 'can I interest you in the wine list sir?'.

He's just had a clean bill of health, other than general ageing and frailty. No cancer, no dementia, just getting old.

My mum lives in one and it's amazing. Has double in value and sell like hot cakes. However they aren't all like that.

I'm also involved in one which is impossible to sell.

Anchor are terrible as management agents

Anchor and Hanover are the same organisation by the way.

Does FIL already live in council accommodation. You can only get into council run ones if you are a tenant already. Would a residential home be better but they cost around £1800.00 a week where I live.

There's definitely a gap in the market imo for someone who knows all the ins and outs of the local provision for older people to advise - probably a retired social worker who just wants to keep their hand in. My impression is that actual social workers wouldn't have the time to do this kind of thing - a sort of housing matchmaker with a good understanding of different health conditions and personalities. (I think I'm imagining Clare Rayner tbh).

From what I've read, I do wonder if 'supported living' is about right for this level?

I have to say i think laughing 60 year olds are a fantasy in any of this provision. I'm still likely to be working full time at that age after all. But that's the problem - all this stuff is marketed very generically because nobody wants to hear the honest truth of what they really need. Im sure i wont either. But it makes it so difficult to work out what is actually on offer.

Might be worth trying the local Age UK for something like that though.

As an x manager of these type of sites I disagree that the service charges are always "outrageous" (some are) what I often found has happened is the people buy without reading the lease then gets deeply upset that the service charge has to cover something they didnt feel it should ( examples here has been. Flood door instalation, drainpipe repairs,). Or doesn't cover something they feel it should (examples. Council tax personal repairs in their flat) So read the lease closely before signing. I also found many took that current service charge as a gospel. So would budget say £3k a year for the next 20 years not understanding why it then was £4K after 10. It's important you ask questions about their 10 year plan and their contingency fund. Can it currently sustain the 10 year plan? If not it will go up. Be aware of what can rise. The surge in electricity a few years ago made the annual budget go up. The communal electricity bill went from £4500 a year to £20K we managed to get a good deal and through changing out a lot of old electrics to lower lights we ended with 9K so a good return that year.

Many DO allow rental. (3 of the 4 I managed did)

I always find it odd when people get upset about the service charge continuing after death. The managing of the site insurance and upkeep doesn't stop because your relative sadly passed. Nor would it on a house your relative left its just many feel they can leave that to "new owners" insurance should also be active while empty but again many chose to not do this. You can't chose to not do this for the %of your relatives flat for 1 building.

In the place I was the longest they have currently got 2 flats for sale 1 is under interest with an offer but proposed buyer has a house to sell herself and the last is wastly overpriced (£30k above the last sold and needs a new kitchen and bathroom. The son/owner will not hear its overpriced and frankly gets abusive if you suggests it) for the others most have gone within 1 year of the relative passing or moving to full care homes. Apart from during covid where nothing happened.

Again read carefully and ensure your solicitor makes it so any shortfall from prior to you moving in is covered by the x owner not you. (Many do not do this and then the manager gets an earful over overcharge when actually it was their solicitor)

Learn about the management structure. In the case of many the actual daily managing agent is NOT the agent that is appointed by the owners and due to this the daily manager cannot get a fair few things through as it has to be done via the actual appointed management company. (Many have Owner - hires management company. Management company hires. Day to day management company. Who hires the manager on site.

Extra care housing not supported living.

One place I read about they charged £90 to change a light bulb and that was a few years ago.

This is a very upsetting thread. A family member sank all their ££ into one of these apartments and within 18 months had to move to a nursing home as their health rapidly deteriorated. The apartment is up for sale with no interested buyers. I can see a huge financial loss to a family that thought they were doing the right thing... and who really needed it to be an investment. It's dreadful.

The most important thing is : Is it right for your relative? . Don't look at it as a potential money maker or loss . DMIL bought hers and lived in it very happily for over 10 years , she loved her flat and it was totally right for her. Yes it's taken a while to sell ( nearly 2 years but the market dropped out after COVID). And now sold at a big loss ( nearly 100k).. But it was her home, she was happy , she was safe and had on site people if she needed them, the family knew that help could be got to her immediately if needs be .. it was the totally right decision for her . That's what important. Not the money.

@Laska2Meryls

i kind of agree. Buying a property like this, in this situation, isn’t just buying suitable bricks and mortar for an elderly parent. We are also buying a substitute for the care, supervision, interaction, company etc that a used to be provided by family. This is why it can’t be seen as an investment in the same way as other property purchases might be.

Personally, I feel that if we as a society think it’s good for society that every functional adult works and doesn’t do caring (unless employed to perform these tasks), then society should subsidise that care in some way. It shouldn’t be left to the market / survival of the fittest. This applies equally to childcare.

The problem is that most sheltered housing schemes (McCarthy Stone etc) don't provide "a substitute for the care, supervision, interaction, company etc that a used to be provided by family."

What they do provide is physical accommodation which is better adapted to the needs of older, less mobile residents - small, manageable, no stairs, accessible bathrooms and so on - with some kind of residents' lounge for a bit of optional community activity, and sometimes limited catering facilities, plus a manager who may be there for a certain number of hours a day. There may be an emergency alarm button scheme in case of falls or emergencies. This is all great for a person perhaps in their 70s or 80s, still independently mobile but finding the old family home too much to cope with.

But once a resident reaches the stage of needing regular care, that is still usually up to the individuals and their families to provide or arrange, and many schemes have rules which say that residents with high care needs, eg those in advancing stages of dementia, cannot remain in the facility.

If you want to guarantee care, supervision, interaction etc, then you are looking at a care home, not a retirement property.

I would only ever advise renting a flat in a retirement development, not buying one, because the chances are high that an elderly person will eventually need more care than can be provided there (I speak from experience).