Please please stop giving this advice

[wheretoyougonow]

I see so many responses on here telling family members to call Social Services to ask for an assessment for their parents as they are struggling with their caring role. You should not do this if they have capacity and don't want Social Services involvement.

One of the first things you should be asked is do they know you are contacting them? Even if they do call your parents ( they may call to offer an assessment) it is extremely likely your parents will refuse.

You really need their agreement first.

If you are struggling as a carer it would be worth contacting Social Services to ask for a Carers Assessment for yourself. This means you can talk about your carers role without consent of the person you are caring for.

If there are safeguarding concerns then of course report them but state that it is Safeguarding to get (hopefully) the correct response.

I'm writing this out of kindness and to hopefully avoid some frustration. Caring is hard so it's important that you are not waiting for support only to be disappointed in the actions (not!) taken.

OP has become pretty quiet. The biggest issue here is that elderly parent won’t accept they need help but will bully and allow family to cover it up especially in front of social services and the like. That way the elderly parent gets things the way they want when they want it.

Job done. People will bleat on about how they should take the elderly parents wants and considerations into the mix. Don’t you think we are doing that already? Constantly pandering to what the older person wants.

Of course you cannot force anyone to do anything. But the massive guilt is overwhelming. We can leave them to fall, struggle to get a basic meal together, be unwashed for weeks on end.

But guess who gets called when something happens - when they are about to go out for a well deserved holiday or a nice dinner with a partner.

I think a lot of people are missing a big point when it comes to capacity assessments. There has to be a reason to doubt someone's capacity. Age is not that reason.

If someone does not have any dementia (or suspected dementia), brain injury, substance use, learning disability etc you can't just call SS and ask them to assess just because they're old and making unwise decisions.

If they have an impairment of their mind then go for it but if they don't you can't go calling professionals behind their back, just like they can't ask social services to assess you if they think you're making unwise choices.

Neglect is a bloody good reason to call SS.

They saved two old people’s lives I know rather too personally.

Don’t ever be put off calling.

If the old are being so impossible it’s become life-threatening, join the club and make the call.

SS have the force of law to save the day. No one else has these powers.

Absolutely - the MCA is being rewritten because it sets the bar too low.

But as it stands, you can be barking mad and wicked to boot and still get away with it.

Of course you cannot force anyone to do anything. But the massive guilt is overwhelming. We can leave them to fall, struggle to get a basic meal together, be unwashed for weeks on end

Yep- and when they inevitably do starve to death or fall over and break their hip then die in hospital it will be: "where on earth were their family- what a state they were in- dont their family care?"

You really cant win in this scenario- if you call SS you are apparently wrong, and if you leave them to suffer in their own neglect you are also apparently wrong.

I’m not convinced OP understands “capacity”. People can have capacity to do some things but not others and capacity can fluctuate - sometimes, confused sometimes lucid enough to make a decision. Capacity tests are very broad.

Anyway the first question social service assessments ask is whether the person has the funds to pay for their own care. If they do that’s often the end of the “assessment”.

What does “does not have dementia” mean?Does not have diagnosed dementia? Does not show any sign of confusion or memory loss?

Currently one third of people with dementia are undiagnosed, roughly a million people.

@Mirabai sorry I tried to cover that with suspected dementia.

What I meant was to people who do not have any memory loss/ cognitive issues of any kind. Undiagnosed dementia would warrant a capacity assessment although GP might be a better place to start than social services. I have met many people- especially those supported by a spouse who have got to the stage of losing capacity before any formal diagnosis is made.

If you have no concerns about memory or cognition in general it's then you can't just ask someone to assess their capacity.

Yesthe psych Dr was better at saying mum had capacity to make decisions on the hospital/follow a conversation but not big decisions about her life and living. They would have done dol if she'd tried to leave the hospital.

And now the social worker is saying she has complete capacity and wants her out. It's so bizarre.

I've been as t times they've tried to section mum in years gone by where the psych nurse has known mums needed admission and a social worker hasn't been keen. "It's her choice" when it's out of character and the illness speaking.

But there are many things self funders can get. Via ss OT . Rise and recline chair. Home assessment to install rails. Bath seat etc .

@Mirabai - I am very aware that capacity is decision specific. What I've said still applies.
If someone has fluctuating capacity the assessor should advise to make decisions when they have capacity.

If I have helped one person here understand why they are not getting the response they hoped for from Social Services then I feel my post was worthwhile.

There are so many carers/family members having a difficult time. I don't propose I have the answers but I have read all the posts. It's clearly an issue that needs to be addressed by the government bodies. Carers at breaking point helps absolutely no one.

I will bow out now but thank you for this discussion and I hope that you get some resolution/support that you and your loved ones need.

If it is a b and b presumably there are staff there providing the "and b " part? So have her go there and the staff there can report back

If I have helped one person here understand why they are not getting the response they hoped for from Social Services then I feel my post was worthwhile

But you literally told people not to contact SS- thats wrong, sorry.

Its fine to help people understand why they arent getting help but you shouldn't be telling people not to ask for help "just in case" they are disappointed by the response.

Thats really not fair. It may be that SS can offer advice, and point them in the right direction even IF they cannot do an actual capacity assessment.

@wheretoyougonow “If I have helped one person here understand why they are not getting the response they hoped for from Social Services then I feel my post was worthwhile.”

firstly, you started a thread. You don’t appear to be responding to a particular person who actually was in the situation you described and might need explanations.

secondly, after being on this board for years, I haven’t seen anyone who thinks that contacting services was 100% useless. As a pp stated, if it achieves nothing we still know we’ve done right and frankly, have taken a step to cover ourselves. The authorities can’t say we didn’t warn them. This is a very important point.

if they can’t help they often point us to where we can get help.

I appreciate your intent may be good but it reads very oddly. As if you are saying “don’t bother contacting social services”. I can’t help but wonder what the motivation is.

@Supersimkin7 thanks for saying the MCA is being rewritten, I didn’t know and this is really good to hear.

NHS staff who had known DF for years and the MDT who assessed him over several days in hospital could all see the ‘lack of insight’ he has. The lines seemed very blurred when a short chat with SW later DF was considered to have full capacity to make the decision he can be discharged to live independently. I hope a rewrite of MCA includes that medical advice after an assessment of capacity over days/weeks/months cannot be overridden by a short chat.

👏👏

That can be accessed via the GP subject to eligibility criteria.

Gosh this is my mums situation all over and for years.

Are social workers this badly trained??? People that know or spend time with mum see what's going on but after a 5min conversation they know better...

You can’t advise someone with fluctuating capacity to only make decisions when they have it! They’re not aware they lack capacity and they certainly don’t know when they have it and when they don’t.

Of course neglect is a good reason to call social services. If in doubt, make the call.

I work in this area. I meet lots of worried and stressed family members. I do capacity assessments part of my daily work. Family / friends will always find it incredibly hard to understand and accept that the person they are worried about is allowed to make really bloody stupid and unwise decisions and social services cannot do anything about it. They cannot put services or support on if someone doesn't want it and can understand the consequences of not having it. People can live in squalor, can hoard, not wash, not take their tablets. They can refuse all help. The law only comes into it if the person no longer has the capacity and decisions need to be made in their best interests. There can be discussions, meetings held, records kept, safeguardings done. Carers can seek support for themselves. But social services cannot intervene if a person is capable of understanding the consequence of their actions and is not a threat to others.

I’m too tired to read through all the posts as today has been spent looking after my disabled adult child and my very elderly father. I have spent the day trying to not to lose my temper as my grumpy difficult father was rude, dismissive and demanding. No pleases or thankyou, just demands and rudeness as I helped with his meds, his medical appt and his shopping.

Carers appts are a joke- a one hour telephone call asking lots of tick box questions I didn’t want to answer and a ‘here’s a £100 cheque for you to spend a nice day on your own relaxing’

Not exactly sure how that is supposed to happen seeing as I am busy CARING!!

I literally drove away from my Dads today thinking ‘if I have to deal with this for another five or ten years it is quite literally going to kill me’
Capacity changes daily for people like my Dad. Yesterday he was reasonable, orientated and polite. Today he was verbally aggressive, rude and demanding.
I need help but won’t get any and who is going to look after him when my health fails even more.

This is the point about “assessors”. There’s no one assessor or a one standard capacity assessment. Different professionals will make a judgment on capacity at the time and situation as required. It may be doctor, nurse, OT, SW, appointee of the Court of Protection etc - some are better equipped or more thorough than others.

@wheretoyougonow not shooting the messenger but the system is broken and clearly dictated by financial pressures.

If someone reaches crisis point and needs admission ( happens all the time ) then the money comes out of the NHS's pot of money whilst they are an inpatient, the NHS can't refuse treatment because the injury was caused because of 'bad decisions' whilst having capacity, and yet social services can refuse to be involved if someone is making 'bad decisions' whilst having capacity.
If an older adult dies as a result of self neglect/ making bad decisions/not being in a safe environment whilst in the community, both services benefit financially, from not having to provide resources for them, harsh but absolutely true !
And the get out of jail free card is always that the person was deemed to have capacity.

I suppose one way round it would be to say to people, if you refuse the care/equipment/ adaptations and need an admission as a direct result of your refusal, you will be charged £X amount for your stay in hospital.