Help with calculating care home fees

[KittensSchmittens]

My DM has a pension of £4500 a month, she would also be eligible for attendance allowance but she doesn't currently claim it.

She has no savings.

She owns half a house (her half worth about £400k), the other half is held in a Trust.

She has dementia so we would need full nursing home care. Would £4800 per month be enough for a nursing home? She can't sell the house as she doesn't fully own it. Would the council put a charge on it? If so is it just for the portion of fees that the pension doesn't cover? Do they leave her with any spending money?

TIA

DF is in a dementia care home which costs “from £1,300” per week for dementia nursing care.
You would need to approach homes to see how much they are near you to know if her pension will be enough.

Claim AA - that can then be used towards the fees (won't help much, but better than not having it).

For a nursing - rather than just a residential - home there is an extra payment that can be claimed to cover the nursing element. Often the home organises this for you, so check when getting quotes and find out if they've deducted that from the price quoted.

Assume around £1500-2000 a week. It depends on area, and the specific home, and individual needs, but that gives you a starting point.

Whether the house is included in means testing depends on ownership and on who else lives there. It may be discounted. If not, and it can't be sold, they can probably put a charge on it.

Once someone falls below the self funding threshold and the local authority takes over payments they will take the attendance allowance and most of the pension towards costs. But not the whole pension - people are left with a small allowance for personal spending.

yes the council can put a charge on it
costs are around £1800 a week here

Incidentally, dementia doesn't always mean a nursing home. It depends on the level of dementia and other medical needs.

A lot of non-nursing residental homes take patients with mild dementia in the main home and often have a separate, more secure wing/floor for people with a higher level of dementia but without actual nursing needs.

Age Uk has useful starting point https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/

plus you can ring their helpline to discuss in more detail

Contact your adult care social services- they may offer a brokerage service to negotiate fees. Or age uk may be able to advise.
The most expensive homes are not always the best - check locally for recommendations via gp, local nextdoor or fbook groups etc. don’t be swayed by posh facilities- check staff turnover/ vacancies, observe interactions with residents. Good luck

What provisions were set up to manage the half and half ownership of the house, if one party wanted or needed to sell? As above, here in the south east it seems to be about £1800/week for high needs nursing home care.

Thank you all for replies, very helpful.

@olderbutwiser half of the house is held in trust, so there are 2 trustees that manage it. The house can't be sold without their agreement.

Do the council take the pension income first and then either ask the family for a top up or put a charge on the house for the remaining balance?

Hi, your first step is to contact the local Council’s Adult Social Care department and ask for an assessment. They will assess your mother’s eligible care needs and also carry out a financial assessment. It sounds like your mother may be eligible for local authority funding, she may just have to pay a contribution towards the costs based on what she can afford. This would be in relation to the Residential care element of your mother’s placement. Nursing care (an additional £235.88 per week on top of the applicable Residential rate) is funded by your local Integrated Care Board. This will all be explained to you by the allocated social worker. Also have a read of this booklet:
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf

All depends on the wording of the trust. If the trust is I presume left to family members from the death of your mother's husband then it would be expected that once she's no longer living there then it's sold to pay for fees as it's empty, alternatively a charge can be put on it. However if her pension covers most of it renting the property out could be an alternative solution

@HollyNightingale I assumed that she wouldn't be eligible for council funding as she has the equity in the house?

@mitogoshi spoke to a solicitor about the trust and their opinion was that it can't be sold without trustee's permission. I think the point of it was to avoid IHT and care home fees, so it's worded with that in mind.

Not all homes will accept a top up…so say you want you relative to go to a home that’s doesn’t accept them….you would have to ask the trustees to sell the house….I mean trustees are usually people who have the persons best interests at heart?

But fuck me…..you gonna put the relatives well being first…surely? …..

@Kitkat1523 the sale of the property won't make a difference to the home she goes to. Any difference between pension and care home fees will be topped up one way or another, either by charge on the house or contribution from family. Just trying to get a sense of the level of contribution needed.

@Kitkat1523 why would homes not accept a cash top up?

@KittensSchmittens sorry, you’re right - not sure how I missed that! Your local authority can still give you advice and support though.

Funding policy …..in my local authority there are a list of those homes that are able to accept top ups …..far more won’t…..my friend pay 525 a week top up for her mum ( from the sale of her home)…..the alternative would be a home with a shit Cqc rating…that stinks of piss when you go in…..her words not mine🤷

Second the advice to get an adult social care assessment, which will also precipitate a financial assessment. I have no direct experience of trusts, but if it was set up with care home fees in mind, there is no time limit for councils to consider this a deliberate deprivation of assets (unlike IHT). So if you want the local authority to commission your relatives care, they will do the financial assessment and may rule out contributing anything from the council tax payer due to your relative owning half of a property, and potentially on the basis of the full value of the property if the council find it was “given away” in a deliberate attempt to deprive assets.

If family is already prepared to pay any fees over and above your relatives pension then it may be easier to not involve the local authority and just be “private”. And as others have said, “nursing” homes are those that provide elements of medical care over and above personal care. Dementia patients often require lots of personal care assistance, but requiring nursing care is relatively rare. However, if your relative has a condition that makes needing nursing care more likely in the future, then choosing a facility that can do both will be better for continuity of care, and your relative would then move between units if needed.

I don't understand why your DM has no savings with a pension of £4,500 per month. That's substantially more than I earn working full-time!

Is her pension currently also being squirrelled away somewhere to avoid IHT and care home fees? If not, then how on earth is she managing to spend all that money every month?

And I would expect that the trustees would be required to comply with the sale of the property to fund care home fees, and if they don't do that then fees will have to be found elsewhere. The tax-payer should not be expected to fund care when significant capital assets are available.

I agree, that's a huge pension! I think that it equates to around £70 000 a year 😮

I was just wondering what on earth sort of job they must have done to end up with a pension of £4500 a month. That's a huge pension!

It’s unusual to claim attendance allowance when a resident in a care home.
Do they have savings with an income like that?
I would contact Adult care. It’s the only way to go unless she will be self-funding care.
The amount left after fees etc left to spend in my local authority is £20 a week. But I don’t know if that is a national figure.
Without a financial assessment it is impossible to know what her contribution would be.

It’s unusual to claim attendance allowance when a resident in a care home.

Not for self funders.

It’s not in the slightest bit unusual. If you are supported partly or fully by the LA, you are not allowed to receive Attendance Allowance, but if you are fully self funded it is normal to claim it.