Care Homes - what happens when the money runs out?

[DatingDinosaur]

Just that really.

If you're self-funding your care home fees (because you're not eligible for subsidy for some/all of the fees), what happens when the funds are gone? Can you stay at the same care home but have it paid for by the state (after assessment I'm assuming) or do you have to move?

This is in England, if that makes a difference.

datingdinosaur

Would she consider respite, going in for a week or two to see what she thinks?

This could be a trial with a view to staying if she likes it maybe?

I believe she is entitled to a Social Services assessment regardless of whether she is 'self-funding'.

Have you looked at Extra Care? These are flats with carers on site and often have a restaurant/communal activities. https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/housing-options/assisted-living-and-extra-care-housing/

This.

If she rented out her home would that cover the fees?

It was actually respite care in a home that set her off thinking (she'd broken her forearm in a fall). I reckon she'd be up for doing a try before you buy again! Just not the broken arm bit

We/she did look into Extra Care facilities but it isn't much different to the setup to what she's got now (it would ease the load for the rest of the family though). Ultimately, I think she's bone-weary of having to be so independent - everything is an effort/painful (arthritis) and her vision is deteriorating quite rapidly. She's frustrated at losing her independence but is realistic about the fact this is only going to get worse, particularly if she ends up needing to be in a wheelchair or can't do ablutions/toileting for herself because then she'll feel as if she's lost her dignity as well if it's family helping with this.

Personally, I think she's over-thinking this - worrying about what will happen when the money's gone (a few years down the line). It's a bridge we'll have to cross when that time comes, imho. By the sounds of it the options will be; a social services assessment with the potential of having to move again, or; family take over the fees and she gets to stay.

That's a good point about renting her home out. I don't think it would cover the full cost (not of the two homes she's got her eye on anyway) but might extend the duration of self-funding and by the time there's only rental income left, I'm absolutely certain the family, between us, can make up the difference. As awful as it seems for saying this but, it might not come to that.

Thank you all again for your suggestions and insights, it has been really helpful to read the replies and given me lots of avenues to explore.

My great uncle at 96 was moved to a cheaper care home.

My mother had 3 weeks in a £1500 a week home. Was beautiful like a fancy hotel. But when a room became available she moved to the cheaper, not at all fancy, older home where my father is. Typically the council lets people stay in this second home when their money runs out. But just as importantly, OMG, the staff are a hundred times better. They are wonderful.

If Councils fund x number of beds in y number of homes, do they change their funding choices regularly? In other words, if you are self funding and chose a home based on the council funding, is there any guarantee that the council will still be funding that home when the self funding money runs out? Equally, if you enter a home on council funding from the get go, can the council remove that funding from a particular home and force a move?

I'm afraid I don't know the answers to those questions Bartleby. As she's privately funding it, the LA funding is mostly irrelevant. There's no way anyone can know if x care home will have LA funded beds in x years time so can't possibly make any decisions which would take that into account. Our priority at the moment is to make sure she's happy with the decision she makes now.

Love your user name!

In our LA, if we were funding someone in what we call a "block bed" and we terminated the block bed arrangement, we would still fund the person to be there until they moved or died.

We have a number of block beds but also loads of "spot purchased" beds. In most of the local care homes (residential and nursing) there are LA funded and self funded residents. There are a few care homes that have such high rates that we can't negotiate a lower priced bed.

That's really sad. We try never to do that but it does occasionally happen. I hope your great uncle likes his new home

Research, research, research!

Just because a home is all singing and dancing,
It doesn't mean the care is any better.
Read CQC inspection reports, the most recent and the previous. Read care home recommendations from families, what score do they give etc.

Absolutely this. I am a nurse in a care home and my top advice when looking at homes is to concentrate on the atmosphere as you walk in,the greeting,are the staff happy and interacting well with the residents and other staff?
Ask to see the kitchen and store cupboard and sample menus .
Do not be taken in by the 5* furnishings,fresh flowers ,ornament's,matching furniture etc . Expensive doesn’t always equate to decent care !

My mother was self funding in her care home for nearly 7 years before her money ran out. I too was concerned what would happen when her funds ran out. I didn't expect her to outlive her funds - but she has.

The manager said they would always try to keep a longstanding resident with them if possible, and they came to an agreement with the local authority which is now funding her in the same placement at £1100 a week (as a private resident she was paying £1200 a week).

As @EmmaGrundyForPM said, there are very few LA owned homes now. In our county there is only one.

All homes are different and you can have different experiences. Dad was in local council home but he had advanced dementia and no interest in his rather basic surroundings or in doing any activities. Most of the staff were lovely but there was a high turn over and regular use of Agency Staff, some of whom werent great or spoke little English.

Mum is in a private home and self fund by selling her house,which we are in the throes of at the moment. The surroundings are nice,rooms are bigger and no agency staff. Most of the staff have been there a long time which I think is a good sign. I hope she settles.

Mum is in a care home, I have POA. We estimate her savings should last her about 7 years, neither my partner or myself can see her living this long as she had pretty advanced dementia. We are selling our house and moving into hers to pay her rent towards her care home fees which are nearly 6K a month. She had a discretionary will trust set up about 20 years prior and when my father died his half of the estate was ring fenced for me, so I get half of the estate no matter what happens. The LA cannot insist on the home being sold during her lifetime as she has protected lifetime rights as part of the trust and it cannot be sold during her lifetime.

I read a solicitors letter the other day addressed to my parents basically summarising that if one of them died and the other went into a care home the house would be left entirely to the beneficiaries, i.e. myself. And the care home could make no claim on the estate after her death.

DH is deputy under the Court of Protection for a longstanding family friend with learning difficulties who had to go into a home after his last relative died. He has been there now for about 8 years. He inherited some money which has paid for this so far but now has only about 1 years worth left. After this the local council will have to take over and I hope that they will let him stay put as he is very settled there There is no possibility of a top-up as he has no family left. He doesn't have dementia but has limited understanding so would really struggle if he had to move.

It was on the news tonight. Money ran out and they want to move the 98 year old to a cheaper home. I guess that is fair enough. Care home fees are ridiculously high though.

Having looked at a good few care homes for both FIL and MIL, I'm not aware of any local places where the basic self-funded fee is anything like as low as the LA payment. It's a tricky one to figure out. Homes at the lower end of the price range locally really aren't so much cheaper that it's worth the compromise on quality of life on the offchance of him outliving his assets.

that's why people must protect their estate well in advance.
When I inherit Mum's house I will do the same. Its Estate Planning and yes, it costs a fair bit to take out but it is worth it if what you have worked and saved your life for isn't taken off you by exhoribant care home fees or you want to leave as much as you can to your beneficiaries! Nothing wrong with that. These people that are saying to give your home away to your kids, or whatever. There is a seven year rule. But even then it can be classed as 'deprivation of assets' and there is no limit on how many years they can go after you for money if they think you have deliberately done this, whereas making a trust prevents this from happening.

Not only is there not ‘one size fits all’, but also the weasel words ‘we have the right to withdraw this service. In other words just because they promise something when the residents moves in, it will not necessarily apply when it is needed. The resident’s need can no longer be met at this facility is a typical clause.

But if you do the estate planning so your home cannot be sold to pay for care that means you lose a lot of choice in where you go, or even if you go into a care home at all. That makes you very vulnerable.

Relative could choose to use the money from sale of her property to go into residential care and enjoy a good quality of life. She chose a lovely home and enjoyed several years there. She was frail and frightened living on her own but if she'd not had her own money, social services would have assessed her as needing a few care visits a day. There is no way she'd have been funded by SS to go into a home at that stage. She'd still have been lonely and frightened much of the time, living on ready meals microwaved by carers.

Can I check. Does your relative mean a proper care home or a retirement type complex i.e Churchill or McCarthy type flats. Both are very different. I have had experience of both.

How much is the weekly fee coming out at if its a care home - circa £1500 per week? For most people the fees are staggering but my late Father was paying nerly £8k per month and he has been dead 2 years! Unless relative sells their current house it becomes unaffodable for most. My DF wanted to keep his house just in case he wanted to move back!! We couldnt do this for financial reasons.

that depends on the persons needs though. Mum was assessed for going back into her own home but her mobility since she broke her hip plus her dementia meant that they said she couldn't go back home even with a care package of many visits a day. They said she was at risk of falling. Telling a dementia patient they must not walk is just not feasible.