Private school and class sizes - would you pay for 24 in a class?

[Cortina]

Following on from other thread. I am interested in how important class size is to private school parents?

Would you be prepared to pay for a class size of 24 in a prep school for example? (With a full time TA).

What would be the 'limit' of pupils in a class?

Quality of Teaching is the key thing and it would seem almost impossible to measure. Class size - there are so many things that play into this (breadth of abilities in the class, age range, number of disruptive children / those who need extra attention). DS used to be in a class of 23 but this was including 3 school years so he was 6 and some peers were 9. No one was disruptive but there were children with learning delay, speech problems and just generally struggled so he hardly ever got any attention. In fact once the teacher spent 5 minutes with him and felt the need to tell me so I just felt rather sad! Same for DD1. 23 in her class including a highly disruptive child (throwing furniture etc) and children who needed additional support. Now our DC are in prep school and have classes of less than 15. Though I would also caution against having too small a class as this can lead to social issues. Doesn't research suggest about 21 is optimum?

That seems like a large class size. My own classes were 12 for pre-prep, 16 for prep and 20 for secondary school.

DC1 is in Reception at our local infants school (2 mins walk away and lots of friends on our street which is lovely), but there are 30 in the class. It’s too many. My little one is a September baby, so was ahead with reading and writing before starting. To be honest she is now treading water. We’re planning to switch to the local pre-prep, but currently debating if it’s this coming September (year 1) or next (year 2). The class size there is 16.

25 is quite normal for a prep school, eg Dulwich or Eltham Colleges.

Using class sizes or pupil:staff ratio is a blunt instrument to asses teaching quality.

TAs are fine up until Y2 but after that they should have teaching staff qualified in either teaching and/or their specialist subjects. I wouldn’t be happy with having TAs in lieu of teaching staff.

My two, in two different schools, had 18 in infants/pre-prep and 22-24 in juniors/prep.

Classes in both schools are divided into smaller groups for certain subjects e.g. half will do maths whilst the other half do music and swap.
I find this is the best of both worlds

• small classes for certain subjects to allow for a better teaching and learning environment

• larger form sizes to allow for discussions, sharing of ideas, group work, team sports, drama productions, orchestra, ensembles and development of friendships.

Our state primary has 24 with a TA, set groups for literacy and maths so working in about 8 for those. Works really well. The research shows that class size has a negligible impact on teaching IF a the teaching is high quality which it often is at state schools.

We are taking our DC out of a prep school with class sizes of 12-14. Apparently class sizes of less than 16 don’t work, and we have found this to be true. The class dynamics are awful. In both classes the sex ratio is 1:2. I also think it depends very much on the ability of the class as a whole. The difference between the less able and most able is cast at current school and attitude is very much that the most able can just sit and wait for the rest to catch up......so a class of 24 of reasonably similar ability wouldn’t bother me nearly as much as a smaller class with a huge ability spectrum.

I think preps that set can certainly have classes of 20-24. 24 would put parents off because they do think small classes is what they are paying for.

However I think it really depends on how school is organised and high quality teaching. A useless teacher won’t teach 12 DC well! I’ve had an experience of a prep using unqualified “teachers” for YR and higher up in the school and we left. Just not what I’m going to pay for and these were teachers who would not be employed as such in state schools. However, other parents liked 16 in the class and couldn’t care less about quality teaching and couldn’t recognise it anyway.

For me, as a state school governor, I was well aware of quality first teaching and the steps first class heads take to ensure the high standards in their schools. Some preps do next to nothing to ensure high standards in teaching and never monitor teaching, instigate targets and appraisal or review the curriculum. Parents really wouldn’t know this but preps with top destinations have standards to uphold so, in my view, they are often the best bet.

My child being required to Dress up all the time would have exhausted me! Once a year is fine! The national curriculum does not prescribe how you teach. Just what you teach and expected outcomes. If schools don’t check outcomes then they have no idea if the teaching is successful or not. Regardless of 12 or 24 in the class!

I would be ok with 24 for a year (or maybe two) in KS2. A lot of independent primaries have cut offs at 25 in my area so will sometimes have 23 or 24 in a class before they split into two when there are 25 kids.

But I wouldn't be keen if that was their standard number. I think 16-20 is about right, enough children for social groups but small enough for individual attention when necessary.

I know this is an old thread, but just to add that I think people are underestimating TAs in the private sector vs state sector. I am biased as my DH is a TA in a private prep, but it does mean I have some insight into this. There is a team at his school of 5 TAs. 3 are fully qualified teachers (DH is a 3 years post qual teacher) who are choosing to work as TAs not teachers because of family commitments (DH was a stay at home dad for 4 years). The other two have uni degrees in the subjects they mainly support (but no PGCE). The 3 qualified teachers plan and teach small groups and cover lessons, and all 5 support the teachers in lessons. That’s pretty normal in the independent sector where qualified teachers are routinely TAs. Sports support is mainly gap year students. Not sure about state, but my kids were all state to year 2 and I think TAs I came across probably were “unqualified” (albeit fab!).

16 in our class right now - perfect! no, wouldn't want to pay for 24, and declined an offer from a selective all through school as could see they could offer nothing better than our non-selective prep with small class sizes

@legallyblond your post made me giggle. Our local fee paying scoops up the TA’s that can’t get work in the state sector. Some don’t have degrees let alone education qualification. They are lovely and supportive and sweet but very unqualified!!!

Would and do. DD had a class size of 18 in pre-prep, and now 24 in prep and I couldn't be happier with her school.

Class size isn't the end goal: it just stands as proxy for your child getting enough individual support to learn well. But as Mr Pickles says, a lot more feeds into that than just class size: ability range, disruptive behaviour, support from TAs and other specialist teachers for Music, PE, and Art (which gives form teachers more time to prepare lessons).

And then add in the extra dimensions eg the quality of the teaching itself, support from a focused and capable SLT, positive school culture... small class sizes are only one fairly small piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

Class size is one of those things parents think is way more important than it is. I definitely wouldn't want a class size less than 16. Much better to have a larger class with plenty of space and a high ratio of (very experienced, well qualified) staff. Too small offers no flexibility for group work, less social opportunity, less chance for independence and it means they will be less able to transition to a larger environment layer.

I saw this thread was from March but I didn't pa close enough attention to realise it was March 2010...!

I guess the points still stand though.

24 in a class is fine if the teaching is good. State school teachers can deliver absolutely fabulous learning to 30 plus. Some indy teachers aren't as well qualified though so do your research and make sure staff are sent on lots of courses and training opportunities.

Someone made a good point about TAs. A friend of mine is a TA and us a qualified teacher and has a PhD. She just doesn't want to do all the marking and planning as she has small children herself.
DD is in a class of 13 at prep and had 23 at the state primary. I've asked her and she prefers 13 because she gets more teacher time. There are more boys than girls but they all get on so she is happy.
DS is in a class of 8! Mostly boys. But he prefers it to his primary class of 23 including 3 academic years where he got very little teacher time due to the high needs of some of the other pupils. He's not disruptive and sat quietly for 2 years relaxing

Both those class sizes are too small. Do you not value sport or music or discussion/ conversation that requires more dc to engage to make it effective?

23 is wonderful for a state school and with great teaching, should be close to ideal. It’s also a decently funded state school that could afford this. A class of 8 looks like a school near to closing to me. Assuming it’s one year group. If two classes it should be 16.

Some children crave attention but in senior schools they won’t get that amount. Anywhere. 8 in a class is poor prep for the future. It’s also really great to see other dc as different human beings. The sen, the boffs, the class joker, the sporty ones, the musical ones, the quiet ones and extrovert ones. It takes all sorts and children should be exposed to them. 8 in a class doesn’t expose children to this.

TAs are rarely over qualified in my experience. They also do not need to be to be effective either. They too should be evaluated regarding their contribution towards learning so the whole class makes good progress. A teacher TA isn’t necessary for this.

8 sounds very odd to me! But he clearly likes it so that is all that counts.

24 is not a small class I don’t think We’re not even private and the biggest of my children’s classes is 14.

Apologies for the badly punctuated post! Not sure how the period didn’t make it in. 🤔

PresentingPercy no we don't value any of these things

The state primary with 23 had 3 school years in it - so some children were 6 and some were 9.. the teacher was in their 3rd year of teaching so lovely but it was a tough gig for her and the class covered two key stages. The school was in a mess and I think they just dumped this arrangement on her. They had a number of high dependency children out of the 23 - several severely dyslexic and one who couldn't speak so no 23 is not an ideal number if you have a significant number of children who need extra help and inexperienced teacher trying to teach two key stages and three years at once. It means those children who just get on with their work are left to do so. Funding also an issue - total school size about 70 so no after school clubs etc.

You can't conclude whether something works or not just based on numbers. The prep school combines two school years for sports etc. and makes an A team and a B team and they have orchestras and groups which cross multiple years. The primary school didn't have any sports fixtures and music was singing..

I agree a class should not be too small and I would prefer 12-20 in a class for a good mix. But class size is easy to quantify and the most important thing - quality of teaching, which parents really want to know is intangible on an open day etc. So its a hard one to get a handle on.

We had 22-23 in our prep classes. For me that's a good number. We went down to 16 for a bit in one school and it was way too low. I would want at 20 in prep, teeny classes of 12/14 can become really problematic by KS2. Our senior part of the school is 24 again, wouldn't want lower than this. Selective private schools go up to 30 in a class at secondary, totally fine I think.