Is mine an awful school, or par for the course?

[QZebra]

OPINIONS PLEASE.
Just emailed this to a friend.

Heard some horrible gossip about [DS1]'s school, today. [DS1]'s teacher has been off ill. A mum (W.) was helping out the other morning. W.'s son is J.. I saw W. in there, and saw a little boy (H.) playing by himself in a shielded off corner while all the other children were on the carpet for register. I guess that's what they normally have to do with H. when taking the register, he must be so disruptive. And he still only goes for 1/2 days. H. was assessed for ADHD, but was decided he doesn't have it. I wasn't there for this, but H. later started punching J. in the face so hard that J. had a nose bleed. On top of that W. observed a little girl (K.) being very disruptive all morning in the class. K. has had problems all year (not concentrating, eating blue tack, weird things). The other day I saw K. running out of her classroom & then the TA was chasing her and had to carry her back to the classroom. Apparently she does a runner a lot, and it usually takes 2 TAs to manhandle her (she punches and kicks).

Anyway, turns out that H. head-butted [DS1]'s teacher, who has been off with stress because of it all.
H. has now been excluded, I think because of punching J., not the head-butting.
W. reckons H. and K. are so disruptive that it is seriously hindering the other children from learning.
W. is going in to see the Head tomorrow to insist that neither H. nor K. should go into Year 1 with everyone else, they need to be statemented(?) and put in to the School's Onsite Learning Support Centre (for SN kids).

Seems so awful, such problems at mere reception age!! And this is before genuine learning (as opposed to behavioral) problems are likely to be picked up.

There are problems at the school with bullying, too (my neighbour's son was a victim). Although [DS1] plays with the alleged bully quite often with no problems -- I have alluded to this on MN.
And we are at the "good" school in town -- the middle school other side of town had the most dreadful Ofsted report.
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Forgot to say, i think W was absolutely right to see the head (if I followed it right!) as when a child goes for dx (at least when mine went) the school has an opportunity to contribute, and a clear record of this sort of incident is essential if the child is going to get appropriate help.

I don't think anyone bar a professional has the right though to say that a child cannot go up with a year group; that would be in itself harmful to the child's self esteem and the whole relationship of the parents with the school.

What is eveyone's relationship with the parents on the 'other side' of all this? I remember with ds1 (Sam) being stood in the playground whilst everyone whispered about Sam attacking (supposedly) another child and how they were going to get him 'out of here'. When I followed it up myself, I was told by teachers the incident had never even happened and was just gossip because it hadn't been witnessed, though frankly at that point it seemed likely. I felt very much between a rock and a hard place; if the parents reported it I could use it in our quest to get help AND explain to the parents that Sam was waiting for a dx; BUT if I went headlong into what was in fact a groundless rumour, I would be causing untold pain to Sam for not believing him.

I am not suggesting that these incidents are not genuine, they obviously are; but maybe if someone could talk directly to the parents (if no-one has) things might start to happen, and you might even find a lot of factors you were unaware of?

but of course maybe in my sleep starved state I misunderstood the whole thing in case just ignore me please!!!!!

Agree with Peachyclaire re rumours etc - as a parent gov I know that what I hear at the school gates often bears little relation to what is really going on. That said, the school should be dealing with W's real concerns about her son and this child's behaviour.

I agree that W was correct to visit the Head, especially in the absence of the teacher , indeed the head should have initiated the conversation given the seriousness of the incident and punishment. However I agree with Puddle that she should not expect them to agree to her requests. There may be circumstances of which she is not fully aware and which the head is not able to discuss without breeching confidentiality. If this type of behaviour is normal then there may already be measures in the pipeline for H and K anyway which would resolve her concerns. I doubt it is as straightforward as W insisting though.

There's no doubt about the history of violent behavior from these 2 children. I myself just happened to see K. trying to leg it the other day (which I found shocking). Most everyone knows K.'s mum and she (the mum) is well liked, but I think rather embarrassed about K. H.'s family have a so-so reputation. Everybody knows everybody else because it's a small town. How disruptive the behavior truly is, I don't know, but I believe the basic facts of what W. said she witnessed the other day. The story that the teacher is off because of stress I find credible, too.

DS1 is an extremely resilient child & often comes home very enthused about what he did in school today, but I can't expect him to be forever immune from these kinds of antics, on top of the more 'usual' mischief that will happen in any classroom.

Peachy -- I am already chair of the preschool committee, pretty over-stretched as it is. The school doesn't have a PTA, has a "Friends" group who raise money, but the Friends will shut down if a new Chair doesn't come forward (which would have happened to the preschool if I hadn't come forward to be chair there). I know 2 of the governors (one of whom also has a boy (very shy, lovely, meek & (I speculate) ASD) in DS1's class), but don't think this is really governor's remit (yet).

Hi Zeb,

just to comment on DS1's new school. It is a very small country school (76 kids in total) with approx 10 kids in each year group with first 3 years sharing one large classroom (or actually most of the original victorian school).

I have been there for a few hours at a time a few times (the playgroup spends one session there each half term). I can't remember ever seeing any obvious violent or even much bad behaviour problems.

The head is very approachable and very involved with the kids and the teachers. The school tends to take special needs kids that other local schools prefer not to (one of the boys in DS1's class has downs, others in the next class up have autism, some are accompanied by adult helpers). They also have a lot of teaching assistants.

I don't know if the mixed age class helps behaviour. I don't know if our school or your school is the unusual one (if either). But in your place I would probably go along to the head and talk to her/him about your concerns in an informal way. Say you are concerned both about the individuals concerned and the class in general - your ds included. Maybe there would be scope to have more teaching assistants in that year group to help the teacher manage.

I would say as a parent you have a right to ask questions about the way the class works and a good head would be happy to explain.

Just seen this thread and a few comments.

1. If at any stage you have problems with the behaviour of a child with SN disrupting learning then there isn't much point complaining to the school and expecting something to be sorted. The government are committed to inclusion, and it is LEAs who are closing special schools/ reducing numbers of places in specialist provision. Not schools. Therefore you have to write to the LEAs and your MPs and councillors. Currently parents of children with SN are doing this, but our voice would be far louder if parents of NT children did the same (copy the school into the letters that's what I did). (And there are EBD schools for children with behavioural problems - but they're often the 1st to be shut). Currently if a mainstream placement is unsuitable for a child without additional learning difficulties then the only option open is exclusion. Not good for that child.

2. Many top of the league tables, good ofted report type schools are not good with SN. They exclude troublesome pupils. Many techniques for improving behsaviour are quite simple. Forexample a friend's son (yougest in reception) was in trouble for not sitting at circle time- but no-one had thought to give him a carpet square, or even a chair to sit on. Little things like that can make a big difference.

But my main advice is don't moan to the head etc - write to the LEA/MP etc SN parents have been moaning about inclusion since the policy was intoduced (because however much NT little johnny suffers from the policy the SN child will be affected far more) - but our voice doesn't count for much. I went to a meeting on inclusion last week. The message from parents (all of SN kids incidentally-0 although NT could have attended) and governers was that we don't want inclusion as it is- but the LEA has to push on with it as that is the message from above. So support us amnd get writing.

Jimjams - thanks for those comments - couldn't agree more!

that's interesting jimjams, I will mull over the options.

bit of an update, I think this will turn into a running saga!!

Child H. is being held back, he will repeat reception. he was an August baby and very premature, never should have started reception last year at all.

Child K. is going to be statemented in the autumn, hopefully... and, she is still in my ds1's class along with child J. Even though J's mother received emphatic assurances from the head that J. would not be in the same class with K next year. I do not know how J's mum will react when she finds out, probably very badly.

I had a long chat with K's mum, who has been very stressed by everything, especially pressure from the school. I do feel for her, she is told that K. cannot get a definite diagnosis until she turns 7 (so at least 18 months away). K has tentative diagnosis of DAMP, with Dyspraxia, autism & ADHD also being suggested. The mum thinks it's mainly Dyspraxia: her Ped. has identified that the girl has specific problems, like poor motor control down her entire right side.

I am so keen to get into the classroom on a regular basis myself and see for myself. But I am annoyed that K. is with exactly the same children as she was last year, though. If she is that disruptive it would only be fair to put her in with the other class in the same age group for this coming year. Apparently their class is "lovely", with no behavioral problems whatsoever.

Hmm well not sure why she can't be dxed (unless they're thinking ADHD in the main as that is best beng held in reserve something - but autism, SID (which this sounds like to me), DAMP etc can definitely be dxed before).

having said that the dx is less important than the school's ability to cope. If they're putting her back in a class after reassuring J's mother that they wouldn't that is just stupid.

Woorry about the running off thing. Ds1 did that continuously in mainstream- because he could. Really think this is where specialist education comes into its own as buildings are desgined for the problems (ds1's school classrooms all have high handles for example). Now he;s not obsessed with running off laughing and being chased he can actually sit down and start to concentrate.

Doesn't bode well does it - fell very sorry for K to be honest- hopefully they will at least introduce a carpet square or something. Perhaps the teacher will have read up on some SN strategies over thwe summer (yeah yeah not likely I know).

sory 0 shoud have said sound slike elements of SID- which is part of dyspraxia etc anyway.