i went to visit a private school today and...

[beforesunrise]

... one of the girls in Y10 or 11 (sorry not sure), explaing her choices of GCSE, said "I chose topic x because that's what i am most best at" none of the teachers present made any attempts to correct her either.

this school costs 13/14k per year and they can't even speak properly??? I was appalled....

I completley agree with the OP.

My 2 are learning correct grammar at 6 & 7 and by age 13 I hope will be physically incapable, as I am, of making such a basic error. It is slightly when they correct sales assistants' grammar but 'out of the mouths of babes' and all that.

But then I am definiitly a grammar pedant ... (who BTW cannot type and have a dodgy keyboard )

How on earth do you manage to never make a grammatical error in speech? Do you never just talk without thinking, when in the heat of the moment or a fit of passion about a subject? Or are you just not aware of your own errirs when they occur?

Of course I talk without thinking - all the time but then proper grammar is so ingrained in me that I cannot do anything else and positively wince when I hear incorrect things - 'these ones' is my pet hate ATM (and the one my kids correct) altho ds corrected someone who said 'obvious' as an adverb

Well done you, then! I know I only remember gerunds in spoken English about 75% of the time, and my subjunctive sometimes slips.

beforesunrise, try rereading your OP, which contains no hint that there there were a lot of things you didn't didn't like about this particular school or that this was the icing on the cake. As you say, you "probably wouldn't have given it a thought in other contexts". Divorced from much of the context as it was in your OP, that's how everyone else is going to react to it. One of the features of internet message boards in general, and Mumsnet in particular, is that people are going to react to the information they are given in the OP and not so much to subsequent clarifications. (I still think people have been far too rude, but then I think that a lot these days [old gimmer emoticon]).

I see what you mean P&L but
it was a totally misleading OP given thatthe OP now says that there were lots of things wrong with the school.
And the OP was being bitchy about the poor girl purely because it was a private school and she should therefore not ever make a mistake - which IMO is a cheap shot.

I often used to make terrible mistakes when under pressure. It came I think from having a huge fear of speaking in any way in public - I stll get a bit embaressed at dinner parties etc. I remember getting especially flustered in front of the Chairman of the old Barings Bank when I had to make a presentation to him and actually said

" I didn't know where we was did we".

Unbelievable [blush}. I couldn't believe that we kept the account....

So would the teachers who say that they prefer 'free expression in preference to correct expression' (my paraphrasing) like to comment on today's news story about this country's poor literacy rates. I quote "This is a dismal picture, both for the many who face diminished prospects in what they can achieve in life and for the competitiveness of our country in the world economy.
"It's down to teaching. As a country, we've got to accept that since the 1960s we have performed woefully in international league tables.
"We've got to accept there's something wrong with our teaching."

I suppose a lot depends on what sort of private school it is. Ie. It would be unfair to compare a private school catering for dyspraxia with Eton.

Was the girl happy? What was the rest of the school like?

You should hear some of the truely appauling language used in the infant school playground of my son's state school.

Senua, I grew up in Sweden which was then the world leader in education (and still isn't performing woefully) and I can assure you that teachers did not have this snobbish attitude about different types of speech/working class accents etc. All my friends spoke the broad local dialect, with all its grammatical quirks- but were still able to produce correct written language.

I suppose teachers recognised that it is possible to drop your h's (or the equivalent) in one context and write a perfectly worded CV in another context. I think it is the absence of snobbishness that has left the Scandinavian countries performing so well in education: a large sector of the population are not feeling left out.

It is a serious problem in this country that so many youngsters get written off the moment they open their mouth, because it's assumed that if you speak a working class dialect, you must be uneducated and stupid.

Golly carbonel i hope you correct your children for correcting 'sales assistant's grammar' - thats very rude behaviour in children.

I like good grammar but mine certainly isn't perfect but i do correct my 4 year olds and would expect his school too as well.

OP - hope you find the school you want.

cory, it isn't snobbery. That's like saying it's snobbery to insist that 2+2=4, we should encourage the kids' free expression to say that 2+2=5.

However there are ways of correcting people and more to life than perfect grammar or perfect maths.

Personally I see basic manners as the most important. I would be horrified if my son corrected someone else's grammar yet alone a sales assistant. It is almost a holier than thou attitude that the child has had a very poor upbringing.

By senua on Thu 29-Jan-09 10:29:52
"cory, it isn't snobbery. That's like saying it's snobbery to insist that 2+2=4, we should encourage the kids' free expression to say that 2+2=5."

Not a true analogy. Language is not like maths where there is only one possible answer.

How would you feel if an American teacher came into your dcs class and told them off for using specifically British expressions? Or do you think the children should tell a teacher off for using a Scottish accent?

What children ought to be taught is that there is a more or less fixed form for the written language, though this varies between different English speaking countries; and that they should be able to reproduce British written English in writing.

Also, that with the spoken language there are more variants, but some are used in certain contexts: more of an RP pronunciation in a more formal context. So that being able to reproduce this pronunciation may help you in your career. But that is a long way from telling children that the way their parents speak is simply incorrect.

"Language is not like maths where there is only one possible answer."

I think you meant to say, "their ain't not only won possibly ansa"

Of course there are variants but there are also some basic rules and we do children a disservice if we don't (appropriately) point them out. Haven't you heard employers bemoaning the quality of English - in a competitive field, a poorly written CV is going straight to the 'reject' pile.

the 'appropriately' is vital though.

My son has speech problems and the absoloute best way to make those issues worse is to endlessly correct.
The same is true of NT children. If you want a child to speak well encourage them to do so and do NOT make them fearful of making errors.
When you spaek correctly in response you give them the example of how to say things correctly.

My Dcs speak pretty well because they hear others speaking well( and they read a lot). Not because they get pulled up on their mistakes

Agree Senua, I have rejected native English applicants in favour of a foreign applicant who could actually write English correctly.

To OP, YANBU. I've rejected a school for a similar reason - combined with a general feeling but that was the nail the coffin, as it were. And I think you write English very well.

Gosh Cory! agree with you as well.

Also I like the most best at. I might start to use this!

Completely agree Cory. Those people who insist on there being a 'correct' or 'proper' grammar especially in speech are actually displaying their ignorance of the English Language. There is a sort of grammar that has become more socially acceptable and acquired prestige because it has historically been associated with the wealthy and the powerful but it is no more 'correct' or 'proper' than Lancashire dialect. In fact, dialectical variations, are often much more consistent and logical than standard English.

But to judge a whole school on the basis of one thing one student said in spontanous, unplanned speech or even to allow this to influence one's choice of school is frankly bizarre.

It's worth noting at this point that Shakespeare among other great poets used a strong dialect and multiple variations of spelling. Keats, famously, had a strong accent rhyming 'water' with 'matter' and so on.

I also would be delighted if a student said in an informal conversation that my subject was 'most best' - so clearly a sign of her enthusiasm and awareness of her strengths - both adverts for a school IMHO.

She was probably scolarship riffraff. They don't let the real students speak to people like you.

senua on Thu 29-Jan-09 12:42:37
"Of course there are variants but there are also some basic rules and we do children a disservice if we don't (appropriately) point them out. Haven't you heard employers bemoaning the quality of English - in a competitive field, a poorly written CV is going straight to the 'reject' pile."

But the whole point of my post was that it is possible to produce a correctly written CV conforming to the rules of written grammar at the same time as speaking a local variant of the spoken language!

The girl doesn't have to be taught how not to speak as long as she is taught how to write.

The whole point being that there is never a 1-1 correspondence between the language people speak and the language they write. I use several different sociolects during the day, depending on whether I am speaking to the local mums, or to my colleagues in the university canteen, or to my children. I also have several different versions of the written language: what I write on Mumsnet is not what I would submit to a scholarly journal.

"It's worth noting at this point that Shakespeare among other great poets used a strong dialect and multiple variations of spelling."

What a ridiculous statement. Shakespeare wrote at a time when mass-media was in its infancy (printing etc) and it became apparent to the likes of Samuel Johnson that a standardised form was necessary. Do you also want to go back to Ancient Greek medicine?

at coldtits.

Coldtits - I was scholarship riff raff, it's the real students that didn't have to pass an exam to get in that are the thick ones.

I understand the point you are making, Cory, between oral and written language. As a matter of interest, can you ever consider an occasion when you would say 'most best', even in the heat of the moment?

So how would you have liked the schoolteacher to respond to this girl the BS? Do you honestly think it appropriate to have reproached her there and then?

Do you really think it a reflection on a whole school that a girl with the confidence to speak in this scenario, made a grammatical mistake probably due to nerves? How do you for sure the girl was not bilingual herself as you are bigging yourself up for speaking another language...

I think you need to think of the bigger picture and stop wittering on about the minutae. If you wanted everyone to agree with you here that is pretty ridiculous and you know it.