Phonetic versus "adult" alphabet

[GeorginaA]

I have recently bought ds (22 months) a pop-up alphabet book after showing interest in letter shapes on my t-shirt. (You know the type... an ape swings down from the letter 'a' etc) It's proved a big success but I'm wondering:

• am I being a bit too "pushy mummy" in doing this - if he was bored then I wouldn't bother. But he's really keen on books and likes seeing words printed out.

• do I use phonetic sounds to tell him what the letters are or the "adult" sounds? I've noticed that subconsciously I've used a mix of the two which is sure to confuse him The only problem is, this may sound thick, but what are the phonetic sounds for 'f', 'q', 'u', 'x' and 'z' - I just end up using the adult ones without thinking each time. (Actually, it sounds even more thick, written down). Also, I don't want to interfere with phonetic reading teaching at a later date, but then I also notice that the kiddies alphabet song (which he hears quite a bit) uses the "adult" sounds of ay, bee, cee etc.

I don't want to confuse ds - would appreciate advice from any teachers amongst us!

Jude - yes I think you're probably right about that. I'm almost certain Ds1 will be one of those that teaches himself to "decode"- he seems to do that by himself anyway. I still have no idea how I would teach phonics to a child who can't pronounce any of the sounds correctly anyway. If we HE I'll have to find out - lol. Videos or computer programs I guess. Has anyone used clicker? Does it have a British accent? (This is actually very important for ds1).

There's definitely more to it all than phonics or whole word or letterland or whatever says she, speaking from having a 6yo who can read very well.

DD had words to learn in a UK nursery at 3y9mo and was reading their books by the time we left for Oz, just as she turned 4. She then lost interest for the 9months we were in Oz where she went back to a playgroup type setting.

From around 2yo, like most children, she could recognise 'Sainsburys' 'Asda' 'McDonalds'.

We came back to the UK when she was 4y9mo and she streaked ahead in reading, in spite of being way behind her peers on the first day of school. She hates sounding out words but has substitued a full word she knows e.g. text says robot, she has read Robert.

Not sure if I have already posted this but I gave DD's friend a lift to school on Friday as we were staying at mum's. Tested them both on speliing and whilst DD spells out using adult alphabet, her friend uses phonetic with 'kicking k' etc. They are both equally intellectually matched in my opinion.

But "mmmmmmmmmmm" as in "nice bum, mmmmmmm!" sounds to me like "oommmmm" really. (actually I would be more likely to say "nice banana pancakes, mmmmm", but that is another story).

I just don't think there is an awful lot of difference between teaching phonics with or without the "uh" and I had a lot of trouble trying to get my children to say them without the "uhs" partly because I couldn't really do it.
So I went for the "uh" way and it worked, no problem. I guess all children/mums are different

And just to add, that if a child is having difficulty reading (and I don't mean at age 2, 3 or 4) to try lots of different methods - don't restrict them to just one.

pronunciation of phonics sounds - Yes, mmm, fff, sss, etc. are easy - others are very hard. Basically the best way is to say them very quietly, and try not to emphasize the 'uh' bit of the sound!

kmg - I think I might have got the "fff" and the "sss" (at last) - if I make them a bit hissy it seems to work. Thank you! Will keep working on the others

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the problem with p = puh? Where does uhp come into it or am I completely thick??

Well I've decided to use the adult alphabet while reading him the animal alphabet book (it feels more comfortable to me and I don't have to worry about how I pronounce them!) It seems to work better anyway because 'a' is 'ape' and 'g' is 'giraffe' which both sounds a bit daft if you're trying to tell him they make an 'ah' and 'guh' sound respectively

At a later date, will talk to him about the letter 'a' makes an 'ah' sound as you suggested, SoupDragon.

Thanks all

IIRC, there's a Dr Seuss type alpahbet book which doesn't work unless you use the letter names rather than sounds. And you need to say 'zee' of course instead of 'zed'.

I know lots of people love Dr Seuss but I can't STAND them - couldn't as a kid either! I just hope no-one ever gets one for ds... if they do, daddy is going to have to read it to him or ds is going to have to learn to read on his own pretty darn quick

Trying to teach correct phonic pronounciation on a written message is almost impossible by its very nature. judetheobscure, it affects their writing because when they write developmentally - ie, independently as opposed to copy writing (hopefully that went out with the ark!) you encourage them to say the word and identify the different sounds they can hear. If you say "cuh" for "c", they'll put a "U" after the "C". Whereas, if they've had good phonics teaching (Jolly Phonics for example) then a simple word like that will be written correctly.
It IS hard to get right, but it's always worth the effort. It's abit like not teaching them to write their name completely in capitals - you wouldn't do that would you?

Hmmm - not convinced that it's worth the effort when, so far, my antiquated methods have worked fine and no trouble with spelling or writing cuatu instead of cat for example.

Was also interested in your assertion that copy writing should go out with the ark - my oldest two (ages 7 and 5) spend a lot of time, completely voluntarily - I have never ever asked them to do it - happily copying poems, stories, facts etc.

Hi, I'm a teacher in Australia and phonetic spelling is the first way for children to learn as they can read 2 and 3 letter words first. They are also taught to read basic sight words eg I, come, to, like etc. Once this is mastered, then the move is on to digraphs, blends etc. ch, ck, oo. The best way to introduce is the letters name is ..... (adult pronunciation) and the sound it makes is (phonic) Quick list of phonic sounds is the way you hear them for the words.
apple, ball (breathy sound), caterpiller, door, egg, fish, go, house, indian, jellybean, king, lion, moon, nut, orange, popcorn, queen Kw, red, snake, top, up, violin, witch, x ox on a box or kss, yellow, zip

Copy writing is fine when they choose to do it themselves - but it's a bit like colouring. When they write for a reason, a story for example, it's much better if they write developmentally, otherwise you can spend ages (ie: months) building up their confidence to have a go themselves. They are often too worried about making a mistake. If they only copy write then they don't develop the skills for independent writing as quickly. Also, you could copy ancient Greek out of a book, but you wouldn't necessarily know what it meant. It's important that children do understand what they write.

It is important to get it right, and not do the opposite of the things that are happening in school. I thought your comment about your antiquated methods doing fine was a bit like my mum always asking how I thought she managed without carseats when we were little. If your method worked for your kids, then fine - but it isn't correct phonics and some other kids may not do so well.

OK - my final post on this topic.

I searched the web for some more advice and nowhere could I find anything about how exactly to pronounce the letters. Some of the sites had some audio examples and these seemed to have 'uhs' in. I did find an interesting site - UK Reading Reform Foundation - link is here . I contacted them - their reply (in part):
"Not everyone thinks a totally pure pronunciation is so vital. Sue Lloyd herself - co-author of Jolly Phonics - is one such person and her videos are often criticised because she pronounces the 'uh' part of the consonants."
So, if uhs are good enough for Jolly Phonics (if not for everyone!) then I think I'll stick with them, unless we start having problems.

I think as you speed up what you are doing with your child, the uh's start to drop anyway.

DD is 6yo - think I've alreayd posted that! - and has a simple spelling test each week. We usually practise on the way to school and although we usually use the names of the letters, we'll sometimes use sound for variation. We also switch over how we practise so it might go:

Me: Spell 'sell'
DD: s-e-l-l
Me: tell
DD: t-e-l-l
Me:'suh-eh-luh-luh
DD (thinks): sell!
Me: t-e-l-l
DD: tell!

So we give it all a good workout when it comes to spelling. I love word games though - we often play word substitution i.e. making up new words for familiar songs and get very silly on the way to school.

Well I've gone to ELC and bought some stuff on the Jolly Phonics and dp and I are just trying to get our head round them before we test it out on ds. Ds and I were looking at an alphabet book earlier today and ds started singing the alphabet song, I didn't even know that he knew it. Anyway if you ask him what a letter is he uses the adult abc (on the ones he knows obviously), if I try and use the phonetics he just corrects me. I don't know who is more confused me or him lol.