How much is a 3.5 year old realistically expected to know? How much does your 3.5 years old know?

[mumtochloe]

Hello

DD goes to a nursery attached to a primary school and we had our first parents evening last week.

We arrived earlier than expected and because they were running late we had to wait about half an hour which gave us plenty of time to overhear the teachers conversations with other parents in DD's class.

Well, either everone elses kids are child genius's or DD is seriously behind. The other kids parents were told how well they were doing as they could add up small sums eg 2 + 2, they all seem to know the alphabet and their pictures are so much more advanced. Also DD has one close friend who she is inseparable from, but the word popular was mentioned with all four other parents but not DD. They mentioned she has problems with concentration which I know she does, but according to the teacher she doesn't know things like shapes which she knew just before she turned 2.

DD is a lovely little girl with impeccable manners and to me always seemed like a fast learner. She loves books and is usually keen to learn, but now I feel as though I should be doing more. I spend around 15 minutes a day with her going though the alphabet, numbers etc, (I work full time) and she always has a story at bedtime but should I be doing more? If not then what can I do to help her catch up?

Any advice would be appreciated? Are 3.5 year old really expected to know so much already?

xx

mumto chloe

I don't think you should be overly worried. Schools seem to think that every parent wants to be told their child is a minigenius but just because they can do things now doesn't mean they can perform to that level consistently over the next few years. In fact being able to do them earlier may switch them off when they have to do them. To some extent a preschool with parent's evenings etc will be playing to that mentality. Those are the parents who will now have higher expectations of their kids and then be disappointed when they "fail" to live up to them later on.

Your dd sounds delightful and your attitude healthy. Our dd is same age (4 in August) and is bright and bubbly when in the mood but will not perform on demand. She loves her books, puzzles and games, knows numbers up to 30, letter sounds, shapes, and can scrawl an approximation of her name. However she will only demonstrate her "skills" if in the right mood and with people she likes ! Socially she is probably immature. btw We haven't hot-housed her - she attends a playgroup 3 mornings where her teacher only has 6 under 5's at a time and she has an elder brother who she delights in copying and who loves to play with and "teach" her.

Continue as you are, reading together is a great way of expanding her knowledge and vocabulary and developing her concentration span at the same time. Discuss the stories and characters. The rest will come as the environment becomes more academic and if she is ready and willing to learn it will happen quickly. Presumably she'll start Reception in September anyway.

mumtochloe, aaaah a summer baby! I thought so! Dd is summer born (August) aswell and I must admit, I was quite surprised when I saw what some of the other kids could do in her class but don't worry. The school should make allowances for their age - it's only now that I've really seen an improvement in dd's social skills (she's 4 and in reception and went to the school nursery). It should all come with time. Apparently, dd wouldn't volunteer an answer to a question (even if they knew she knew it) till she'd been in the nursery for 2 and a half terms!

DS is also 3.5, late August birthday. He started last week at the pre-school attached to the (private) school he will go to in September - before that he had been at the same nursery from when he was 7 months old. I have noticed that there is a big difference between the children in his class - some writing surprisingly well, others (like DS) who can barely do a recognisable letter - but it's not surprising, given that there can be almost a massive year's difference in age. I'm trying not to be hung up at what DS can do at this stage, and honestly don't mind how much he knows when he starts school, because kids learn at their own pace. I think what's important is that the school can respond to whatever level the child is at. For the record, DS can count to 30 (he misses out 13 - maybe he's superstitious?), drawing is rudimentary and I've no idea about shapes. I'm sorry to hear you were upset by the parents evening, and that the teacher didn't recognise things that you know your DD can do. It sounds like you're doing plenty already, though, and - more importantly - your daughter is happy and confident.

in my opinion this is what a three year old should be able to do.
1 go tothe toilet by themselves too wee.
2 dress themselves. if they can do buttons, great, if not, so what.
3 scribble with awriting implement
4 be able to enjoy some sort of artwork eg glue, glitter etc
5 share, some of the time
6concentrate for about five minutes onn something, like listening to a story, etc

all the other stuff, bollocks. they are only young once. as long aas theyknow how to read by the time they are 8 or 9. the rest doesnt matter

er, can anyone tell me the educational value of being able to sing the alphabet song? DS can - but he can sing lots of 'nonsense' rhymes etc - it's just the names of letters. I can't for the life of me think how it helps with the route towards reading! No harm in singing it, though.

I have noticed that DS's (new!) nursery teacher, Montessori trained, doesn't ever call letters by their names, but by the real sound they make...'nnnn' rather than 'en', 'sssss' rather than 'ess'. At least this gives them a clue to the 'decoding' info - but I still think that it isn't necessary at 3.5 - fine if they really want to sit down and take an interest, but no pressure.

DS takes part in a 21st C child survey - I was furious last time they came. They brought tests which were used for 3-7 year olds, with the explanation that 'oh don't worry, the little ones aren't expected to do most of it' - oh, right, so they are expected to 'fail' most. I wasn't allowed to speak with DS abut the q's and he got more and more dejected. Finally she said 'which one is the cylinder?' DS looked blank and fed-up. Then she pointed to it and he burst out, furiously 'that's a tube!' and refused to co-operate any further. I'm not going to allow him to be tested like that next time.

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Er, Blu - that was my point - DS2 can sing it but that doesn't mean he knows the alphabet in any meaningful sense!

Oh heck Mumtochloe, it?s hard I know not to compare but please try not to...
I think FWIW the most important thinsg for children to be able to do when they start school are pratical stuff eg gettign dresse,d doing up their coat, independent at the loo etc. My DD is a similar age to yours and although she has started to write her name on her pictures and can recognise some letters, I?m far more excited about the fact that she put her tights on herself today! (she said, ?Mummy, now I can go to school? - bless! I?ve been telling her she has to learn this before she can go!)
We did a lot of pre-school letter work with DS1 (who is 5.5) and I?m certain haven?t done as much with DD (tho it?s hard to remember when I did things) but that?s fine. She can recognise all her numbers now but that was a bit of a battle last summer and a friend?s little boy was way ahead of her there. But then again, she spoke/speaks much more clearly than him....
I think my point here really is that children at this age develop in different areas at different rates. Your dd sounds lovely and I?m sure she?ll be totally fine.

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which Cod?

yes, sorry Dino - I was actually having my own private mad rant brought on by listening to those ghastly Barney children singing it. I hate it's 'nah nah nah nah' monotonous tune and faux educational value!
AND the bloody american 'zee' at the end.

you see? - I am quite worked up about the whole thing!

Well my dd2 (4 in march) is always being feted at really brilliant (shining her proud boastful mummy crown) She can count to 20, knows about 50% of the alphabet and can write her own name really well. TBH if you were really reading fluently at 3.5 I am shocked. DD1 is nearly 6 and she cannot read 'fluently' and yet she has a 'reading age' of 7!!

I would write a letter to the head of the school stating your concerns and also explaining that you could hear others. That to m is the worst of this, you wouldn't have any idea there 'could' be a problem if you hadn't overheard stuff.

I am very cross for you as it is rubbsih as far as the teacher is concerned.

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I agree with everything siad so far. At 3.5 yrs palying and interacting with other kids is the important thing - not numbers and letters. They start formal education too early as it is.
My ds started P1 in August - and this morning I could not get him out of bed as he said school was too hard. I feel dreadful that I can't let him stay at home and play.

Hello Again

Reading everyones posts has made me realise maybe my expectations are a little high. I was very bright at DD's age (not anymore though lol!)and she is one of the babies in her class so I know I should not be comparing her with the older ones. I don't know the age of the children whos parents I overheard, but even if they were the same age I am going to try to chill out and let her progress in her own time. She loves our little lessons at home so I will keep doing these but I am determined not to be a horrid pushy mummy like my parents were with me.

Re the parents evening - I agree - I was shocked when I was informed and hearing your feedback am more certain a parents evening for a 3.5 year old is too much. It was held in the school hall with terrible acoustics and seats very close together so this is why I was able to overhear everything. Admittedly one of the parents was told their child had emotional problems which I SHOULD not have been able to overhear

Thanks Again Everyone for listening

Mumtochloe - IMO that is not appropriate location for parents' evening. Does that happen elsewhere?

I have had real "heart-to-hearts" with teachers on parents evenings on occasion, and no way would that be possible in the setting you describe.

In our school teachers see the parents in the classroom, with the door firmly closed. Parents waiting wait outside in the corridors.

bumping this so I can read it later.

Ds (3 and five months) knows all his letters, can count quite a bit (recognises most numbers up to 100), read some words and do some simple adding up and taking away. He can make up poems and even knows some French....but, he can't hop, jump properly, run well, kick a ball, catch a ball, write or draw at all well, trace lines and all sorts of things that I bet your dd can do. He finds it really hard to climb stairs and can't get up the steps to the slide in the park. He's also quite a baby socially - quite unsophisticated compared to his peers at nursery. I think he's wonderful btw!
They all vary and the idea of a three year old having an attention problem actually makes me laugh - it's called being three! I think learning the alphabet is utterly pointless, unless you want to use a dictionary, which I don't think most three year olds do. He's dyspraxic, which really doesn't help. But it shows that comparisons are pointless. I don't think it's a parents job to 'teach' a three year old anything they don't want to learn. Most of these things even out by school age anyway. Your dd sounds lovely.

I know this is a bit cheeky butting in like this, but mumtochloe, I am a teacher who has experience of reception and I am a little disappointed in my profession if the teachers left you feeling as you do. The important questions at foundation level are. Is your child happy? Do they enjoy school? Are they inquisitve and happy to learn. By the sound of it you can say a resounding yes. I teach at a school where the lots of children enter reception unable to recognise any letters or numbers yet by year 2 are proficient readers and writers etc... I really believe in children feeling happy about their learning.... and at 3.5 that should be through play. That is how you should judge your daughter.

Unfortunately the world of education has become a little too academic for my liking. Sometimes we need a little bit of freedom let our children be children.

Mumtochloe, my ds is 3 yrs 5 months and cannot count to 10 (sometimes to 8 but even thats hit and miss), knows no letters and only recognises 1 number. He has recently learned colour names. He spends hours playing Spiderman, cars and trains, likes to run around in parks and playgrounds and is generally a nice kid. I think its outrageous to expect little children to know all these things before they start school .I would have also been very angry and upset at this teacher's comments. For goodness sake, can't we just let children enjoy their childhood ... they have years ahead of them to stress about numbers and writing