statement in pre-school?

[Jimjams]

Just wondered whether anyone's child has been statemented whilst still at pre-school. I'm about to request one from the LEA- mainly to attempt to safeguard DS 1's one to one help he gets whilst there (they're currently threatening to reduce it from 15 hours to 7.5 hours per week), but also to try and pin down responsibility for SALT and OT. The nursery are in agreement- they say they can't cope with him without one to one (and I agree - if his one to one was cut he'd have to reduce the hours he went there- currently 16). He's 3.5 at the moment and I would like him to stay at the nursery until the term after he's 5. I'd be very interested to hear of anyone's experiences. (BTW they're trying to reduce the hours as they have to make half a million worth of cuts from the education budget next year- his needs haven't changed at all).

I went to see ds's paediatricain earlier this week and one of the things we discussed was statementing. He is 2 at the moment but when he gets to 3 he will be attending a nursery with a special needs teacher. I was told that as the nursery already have funding for a sn teacher then he wont need to be statemented to go there as they won't get any extra money. Also if statementing is done too early I was told that ds might end up sitting in a sort nowhere land of forgotten children, because the dept wants to know what needs to be done now rather than in the future,and as there is nothing extra he needs (because the nursery is so geared up towards sn) I have been advised to start statementing when he is at the nursery in preparation for his transfer to infant school.

Have to say I am very impressed with the nursery ds will attend. They have fitted him into their mum and tots group every week so he gets to know the place over the next year, and the sn teacher pops in to say hi to him at every visit. Also they have opened the soft play area just for him so he can practice his mobility without getting stomped on. Other children use it at different times, but because we can't get ds there for that they have allocated time for him to play in it. Don't think I can ask for much more cooperation and helpfulness really!

Thanks kyliebump- useful to know, I seem to have offended just about everyone (except the nursery- thank god) in asking for a statement so I'm pleased to hear some good may come out of it.

I received a letter from the LEA today requesting a report thingy from us of how we see ds1's needs. I'm not really quite sure what to write (this is the assessment to see if he needs to be assessed). Any tips very gratefully received.

We have someone from the LEA coming to talk to us about schools in a couple of weeks (not sure why when I said I want him to stay at the nursery until the term after he's five- that's September '04) - I get the impression they're quite keen to persuade us to put him in a school nursery from this September (over my dead body). The other thing is we are keen to HE from compulsary school age. I obviously will look at everything on offer but HE seems our most likely route. i can't be bothered to play games so I have been quite open about this, but any time I mention HE it is totally ignored and the conversation carries on with the assumption that ds1 will be going to school. Any ideas? I would still like a statement if we HE- mainly to specify SALT and OT. It's quite a strange situation - I feel like we're all having parallel conversations! I say something about home education and they say "yes when he goes to school" blah blah blah.
Also it now apears that ds1 may have some hearing impairment- very new to all that so any tips from an SEN basis would be interesting.

Thanks for your help again- when I received the letter today I was given the name of the statementing officer and I was hoping they'll be as helpful as you!

glad you've found a great nursery lou- ds1's nursery has been our biggest godsend! It makes such a difference.

Hi Jimjams - sorry for the delay - I've been thinking about this over the weekend.

Who do you think has been offended by you requesting a statement? The way that I think about statementing is that it is appropriate if the child needs are such that s/he needs support/facilities over and above those which are available to the school/nursery from usual resources (including designated money from within their own budget, money delegated to them by the LEA, LEA services such as EP, pre-school, sensory impairment support etc). From what you say, DS1's needs are currently being met from these resources (so as in Lou33's case there wouldn't be anything gained by statementing as he already has the support he needs), but you heard that his support was about to be cut and you want to safeguard his support, so that's where you are coming from.

The Code of Practice says that the LEA are likely to conclude that a child needs assessment if, "..a child's educational needs appear sufficiently severe or complex as to require attention for much of the child's school life, or that the evidence points to the need for specialist early intervention that cannot be provided in the current setting". I guess that as the LEA may refuse to do the assessment on the grounds that his needs are being met in his current setting with the support available, then the grounds to go with is the complex/severity case.

In terms of the HE plan - it's actually quite unusual for children with statements to be HE'd and something I haven't had direct experience of - so the LEA Officer you have been dealing with may not have any experience of this either hence the parallel universe situation!! Keep mentioning it, and ask the LEA Officer that comes to talk to you about schools to look into it for you.

All parents have the right to choose to educate their children at home (called education otherwise than at school), and the LEA has a responsibility to ensure that the education provided is appropriate. For pupils with statements the statement remains in force (and is reviewed annually) and the LEA has to be satisfied that the parents are making suitable provision to meet the child's needs. As I said, this is not an area where I have any direct experience, so if I were you I would give ACE a call (number given in a previous post) or a HE organisation, to ask for the details of how HE and Statements can work. I also don't know what would happen to the provision of SALT and OT in these circumstances.

It would also be worth talking to ACE possibly about the position should the LEA turn down your reqest for assessment on the grounds that his needs are currently being met - would they advise and appeal on the grounds that he needs an assessment in case his level of support changes in the future?

In terms of what to put in your advice - keep it focused on his SENs - at this point you are making a case for assessment, not for the exact amount and type of support required. If HI is now in the picture as well, then that that adds to the complexity of his needs.

Sorry for such a long post!

Hi kyliebump

It was the pre-school advisory teacher who was offended. We have a meeting with her in a couple of weeks to talk about "schools" so that could be interesting.

Had a very strange letter from the LEA today saying basicaly that they can't imagine where I got the idea from that hours may be cut- but saying they're in place until July- so that was good news. I'm still going ahead with the statement though- as I want ds1 to stay at nursery until the term after he's 5 I think it's worth having guaranteed funding in place.

Gosh Kyliebump, you are a goldmine of information, can you stick around until this time next year when I can pick your brains please?!

Hi Jimjams - that's great news that the LEA are not planning to cut DS1's support (and especially brilliant that you have it in writing from them too!!). I wonder where the nursery got the idea from that the cut was going to happen and why they didn't check the position out fully before informing and alarming you? Used to drive me nuts when a parent was sent into a total panic by a nursery/school/other person passing on ill-informed 'advice'!! Parents end up feeling like they're in a battle when there isn't one!

Hope your meeting with the Pre-School Advisory person goes OK - let us know how you get on.

Lou33 I'm certainly planning to be around for a while!! I tend to lurk on the education site and not post as I could spend my entire life on-line getting sucked into various education debates, and it wouldn't be good for my blood pressure!! However, if the title of a post has 'statement' in it then I can't resist!! I won't get sucked in to debates about the rights/wrongs of the system, but if I think I can post advice about how to get through(or beat!)the system then brilliant. The nursery where your DS is going to go sounds great - and really clued up for SEN. I hope he enjoys it.

That's good to hear from my point of view kyliebump! He will be going there when he is 3 (and he is only 2 today!) but he goes to mums and tots there, and the sen teacher makes a point of coming to see him each time, plus she has asked if she can make home visits from time to time after half term next week. I feel very lucky at finding the place, it was recommended by dd2's headteacher, our new hv and ds2's paediatrician, so it comes with good references!

Kyliebump- the pre-school advisory teacher told the nursery that she would ask for extra support but it would be refused (this is what has happened every other time there have been extra sen kids joining). I think because I kicked uo a fuss (before the budget meeting rather than after the decision had been taken) they were bit stuffed. They've left the letter a bit ambiguous but basically they've tried to blame the pre-school advisory teacher for the mixed message (when in fact I believe her). Really the LEA letter doesn't make sense as it makes out that the money is being awarded to ds1 when in actual fact I now have it confirmed form several sources that the the money goes to the setting.

Meanwhile because of a cock up with govt funding the lea are threatneing to make 100 teachers and 200 TA's redundant from September and the local autism unit will be losing a teacher from Arpil (so the staff ratio will be 3 teachers to 12 autistic kids- that's workable- not!!!)

I'll see how the meeting goes in a couple of weeks...... Probably post for more advice then.

How are things going jimjams - what happened about the meeting to discuss schools/HE?

Kyliebump can I pick your brains please?

I don't know if you are aware but ds2 has cp (spastic diplegia). He is 2 now and is supposed to go to a state nursery aged 3, which has fantastic resources for children with special needs, so we weren't going to bother with getting a statement until he was in the year before he would go to infant school, as this nursery already gets funding. However it is in a difficult place for us to get to every day for only a couple of hours (basically the opposite direction to our other kids), and it is quite a large place, and ds is painfully shy.

I have been thinking about sending him to the nursery ds1 goes to at the moment. It's closer and very small, only about a dozen children attend at any one time max, and the staff are lovely. I think he may benefit from being there more . The problem is they don't have any sen teachers, so would I have to start ds statementing earlier to help get their funding to help cope with his needs ? I am seeing ds paediatrician in july and could ask her to start the ball rolling earlier, but just wondered how early to do it? I want ds to start in about a years time when hopefully he may be a bit more independently mobile and have more sitting balance.

I hope this made sense and sorry to have waffled on!

lou- I can help with that one. In most LEA's fundng will be provided to the nursery to help with SEN kids- but it may not be enough. If you want to get guaranteed help for your child you need to get a statement as this would specify their needs.
It might be a good idea to talk to you parent partnership to get the LEA funded view- and then IPSEA as well to get the bolshy " this is what you are entitled to" view. The go somewhere in between! As a parent you can request a staetment- IPSEA's website tells you how to do it.

We just heard yesterday that ds1 is going to be statemented - they sent a form for him to fill in!!!

Kyliebump- the meeting was a bit of a waste of time, a bit nothing really- but they seemes positive about flexischool in principal. We shall see.....

What's IPSEA?!! I know it's probably blindingly obvious , but today my brain is on go slow .

Thanks for the help anyway, the main thing I wanted to know is how early should I get this underway? I am thinking ds should start this time next year, so is July going to be ok (that's when I see the paediatrician next) to get the ball rolling?

Can't remember what they stand for lou! Independednt parent Special education addvisory ???? no idea. But type IPSEA into a search engine and you'll get there. I found their helpline very helpful!

The best thing is they are independent so you get the law as it is rather than as LEA's choose to interpret it!

I had a meeting with one of the workers from the Parent Partnership Service yesterday and although she is there for the parents of children with special educational needs she did say that she is employed by the local education department!!
IPSEA Tribunal Support Service
www.ipsea.org.uk

Advisory Centre for Education
www.ace-ed.org.uk
The above organisations were recommended by the lady from the above partnership and she was very helpful, most LEA's have a group.
Have you got a copy of the little blue book called "Special Educational Needs" A Guide for Parents and Carers???? I'll find the website address for that and post later
My DD has cerebral palsy diplegia and waiting for a fulldiagnosis from CT scan it was formally diagnosed the week before Xmas and she was 26 months by then....my advice get the statement process activated asap( sorry can't continue will post back later and explain reasons....sorry

had to go before DD woke up but she's now away with the fairies and dh is out so a quick chance to explain my opinions.....
1.My dd is now 30 months and recently we were told about funding that can be provided to enable
a child with special needs to attend playgroup on the same level as their peers, to whichever group you feel is suitable for your child.The descriptive word used was "deprived" of early years experiences but in no terms would I suggest my dd is deprived in any other way (IYKWIM).We are still waiting for the playgroup to find a suitable Enhanced Support Worker but they have allowed my dd to start this week with me fulfilling the role(I am a qualified nursery nurse who prior to having dd had spent numerous years nannying but have now decided after two days in the setting that when dd starts school I am going to look for nursery/playgroup work again as I've enjoyed it so much)
I would not have found out about this funding if an Early Years Inclusion Officer had not received information about us from my dd's paediatrician (who I had asked to start the statementing process)
I wanted the process activated as dd is an end of August baby and therefore will only receive one full year of pre-school education(fromthis September)and did not want part of that year "wasted" without the support I feel she needs to enable her to achieve her full potential like her peers.
My next is a question to all other mumsnetters as I'm now in a bit of a pickle with my current job as the boss has suggested I have fixed hours ,which is all well and good but now means I need a registered form of childcare and I am a bit concerned that a child minder would find my dd too much of a challenge....her physical needs are so much greater than a child of the same age...to be paid the same and also the getting out and about implications....special buggy required/ car seat etc....not to mention the number of appointments......any suggestions really welcome..
ps Jim jams/Lou 33 you are stars your knowledge and shared info has helped me so much, I have only recently started posting but found the site around Xmas time
Take care everyone

Hi Chatee, thanks for posting, I will check out the link later.

We have two nurseries that could be an option, as I said. The first is very well resourced and funded for special needs children,and has sn teachers there all the time, so ds would be well catered for. They are also very nice and have really gone out of their way to get ds used to the place before he starts next year (jumping the queue for their mums and tots sessions, opening the soft play area just for him to practise his mobility, organising home visits), but it is a large building, with a lot of older more able bodied children hurtling around, and apart from the obvious concerns that entails ds is also painfully shy, to the extent that anyone even touching him send him into floods of uncontrollable tears and screams, which makes me unsure of such a large environment for him. The second is as I have already said very small, lovely staff, and they know the children under their care inside out. It's also a lot closer and we won't be obliged to send ds every day. they are also prepared to have either myself or dh with ds for as long as it takes to settle him in sucessfully.

Because the first nursery is already funded I wouldn't need to get ds statemented until he was attending it, in preparation for transferring to infant school, but now we are considering this other place I just wonder how long I should allow to get the statement in place? The smaller nursery said they don't think they will have a problem getting funding for him but a statement would be a big help obviously. It's such a mass of ifs and buts it's driving me mad!

Btw we took ds2 in to the nursery today to pick up his brother (he doesn't usually go to collect him) and he insisted on trying to sit on a little chair to draw! Got absolutely hysterical when we had to prise him away because they were closing, so I guess that is a good sign. At the other place when dh takes him to mums and tots he wants to sit on his lap the whole time until they open soft play for him.

oh chatee I don't know - that's a really difficult one. Mind you your pre-school funding situation sounds really good- make sure you hold them to it- and yes statementing is the way to go. My son is currently funded for one to one at nursery which is an absolute necessity but the LEA want him to share this support with another autistic child (quite simply just not possible)- without the statement they can do this, with one sepcifying the level of support they can't. I think from April the LEA are planning to fund one adult helper to 5 (yes 5) SEN kids ha ha ha ha. These people obviously spend their time looking at balance sheets not children. I'm waiting for the policy to become official and then I'm sending in my letters!

Is it fixed hours or no job? If not I'd avoid having to use a childminder. Unless you find smeone absolutely brilliant who has an instinctive way that you trust absolutely I would avoid using one.

Go with your gut feeling lou. DS attends a small nursery (24 children per session) and it's great. Really good. The care and love count for a lot! I think some funding should be available although as you said a statement would help. They should take 6 months- but can drag on.

Does your ds have sensory integration problems (just thinking about the screaming when others touch him). If so then a smaller place would defintiely be better as a large one might just overload him.

That's the way I am tending to lean at the moment Jimjams. I have wondered about sensory integration problems, but he's a very confident little boy at home and with his brother and sisters, so I don't know if that would be the case or not? He just gets so upset with anyone else dealing with him. Even his phsyio has her work cut out for her half the time and she has seen him weekly since october. It does seem to be more than just shyness though imo. That's another thing to mention to the paed in July I suppose!

Does he see an OT? I think they're very good with sensory integration.

I have a friend visitng BIBIC at the moment- her duaghter has complex problms but they've identified all her sensory issues. I'm looking forward to taking ds1 in June. The sensory problems can be very complex- so you can be hypo in some areas and hyper in others. DS1 can't bear being surrounded by children, but climbs up on laps for cuddles. The children bit may be becuase they move to much, or they smell, or he can't see them properly- not sure.

I've just been reading things that suggest that dyspraxia is a mild form of CP. I thought that was very interesting and it would explain many of ds1's problems. Sensory integration problems can go with things like dominace problmes (say you are right handed, but your left eye is dominant).

Interesting stuff. The out of sync child might help- should be in the library- I have it but haven't read it yet.

He is supposed to see an ot in about 2 months they said, I met her the other day while at phsyio and she was very nice. They will combine physio and ot together so we don't have to make 2 appointments to the same place. I'm still getting used to how sensible the services are here!

As far as dyspraxia goes, dd1 was tested for it a while ago, but didn't have it, so I know a bit about it. However as for ds2 I can only tell you from a fine motor skill pov, as he is not really doing much gross motor. His fine motor seems very good though, he's only just 2 and he will hold a pen in the proper pen grip most of the time, and that has been worked out by himself not being taught by me. He is able to pick up very small objects easily too, but thats hardly enough to rule dyspraxia in or out. I think we will have to wait a bit longer to watch if that develops.

Chatee, thanks for the links, they have been very helpful. I am now starting a special needs file on the pc to keep all this for future reference.

to receive the Special Educational Needs book there is an email Address for the full version produced by the DfES Publications Centre
[email protected] or phone 0845 602 2260
inclusion.ngfl.gov.uk
It says the copies are free

Hi Lou33

It's great that you're looking into all of this in plenty of time before ds2 is due to start nursery. I understand your dilema - especially as he showed such a great reaction to ds1's nursery today!

My advice would be along the same kind of lines as jimjams. I would contact the LEA (do they have a pre-school advisory service? If not, the parent partnership officer) and ask what the LEA's position would be about ds2 going to ds1's nursery. The best outcome would for them to say, no problem, we will make funding available to whatever nursery he will be attending. The worst outcome would be for them to say that they would not make funding available to that nursery as they funded the other nursery specifically to meet the needs of SEN children and it would therefore not be an 'efficient use of their resources' to fund support for him there.

Once you have an idea of the LEA's likely position then (if you're not happy with it) you can contact other agencies, such as IPSEA or ACE to get further advice on your rights etc if necessary.

It may also be worth thinking about whether there are other aspects of provision at the first nursery that may not be available if he goes to ds1's nursery. For example, the LEA may have arranged with the Health Authority for therapy services to be provided there - eg a visiting SALT/physio/OT and it may well be that this won't happen at ds1's nursery. ds2 may have to have clinic based appointments with a programme given to the nursery for staff to follow. Provision of therapies in education settings is a notoriously difficult area and although advice might be 'if the statement says it in Pt3 (the provision section) then it has to be provided' it can be very difficult to get therapies specified in Pt3 (although SALT is now more widely put there) and even if specified it can be difficult to get them implemented by the Health Authority. Not trying to put you off at all - it just came to mind as something to think about.

In terms of statementing the process should be complete within 6 months. Sometimes it takes longer and sometimes it takes less time (I'm sure no-one believes me on that one!). Things tend to take less time when all services are currently and actively involved, and you're not having to wait to reach the top of a therapy waiting list. From what you've said about the agencies involved with ds2, I would hope that people would be able to meet the assessment deadlines.

You said you could ask the Paediatricain to get the ball rolling in July which is about 6 months from when ds2 is 3 isn't it? It could be that your Health Authority has good links with education and they have a system in place to start off statutory assessments, but in lots of authorities the Health Authority sends a general "notification" of a child with SEN, which is not the same as a request to the LEA to start an assessment. The LEA will possibly ask for reports from various agencies on receipt of the notification and then decide whether or not to go ahead with an assessment, which can mean a delay from the original notification. I would check out with the Paediatrician what the system is in your area. It may be worth making a parental request for assessment using a letter from your Paediatricain as supporting evidence.

Jimjams - that's great that the LEA agreed to your request for statutory assessment. So, from where things stood a month ago, they haven't cut ds1's support, have agreed to your request for assessment and appear to be open-minded about your ideas for flexischooling - sounds like things are going well and you aren't having to have the battle that you were anticipating. I hope it continues like that for you!

Just one thing (and I don't want to panic you), but having support specified in a statement does not necessarily mean that the support is for that child only. What I mean is that if a child has 15 hours support, then s/he does have to have that 15 hours support, but another child / children might be included in some small group work with him/her - otherwise there would never be any opportunities for small group/paired work. Do you see what I mean? I wonder if I'm one of "those people" that you refered to??

Hope some of this makes some sense!!