Education Reforms - Is is me??

[bayleaf]

There are two things I just don't get at the moment ...
Firstly - will someone explain to me why it is a good thing to let students drop everything except English Maths and Science at 14 but at the same time talk of replacing A levels with a Baccalaureat style exam - ie one that requires students to also study languages, humanites etc - which half of them will have dropped two years ealier! If it's good to keep your options wide and have a broad education at 16-18 why wasn't at 14??????
And another thing. Why oh why do they imagine than continually increasing the amount of people that go to uni is going to increase the proportion of lower socio-ecomonc groups who go? It has simply meant that practically the whole of the middle classes go - however dim they are- but made little or no difference to the bright kids from council estates who OUGHT to go- and now to finance it all they're bringing in this madcap £3,000 extra payment - which you pay back on just £15,000 a year - well I'm all for those who have ''done good'' out of uni putting back into the system but since when was £15,000 a 'good' wage?
Why on earth don't they take higher education back to the sort of numbers it had 10 years ago ( so it'd be a lot cheaper!) and put LOTS of money into SERIOUSLY getting bright but socially deprived kids there - from what I've read there are all sorts of scheme in the States that whilst not perfect are working a whole lots better than anything we have here.
OK rant over.
Back to watching daytime TV.

Hmmmm I'm afraid I still don't agree that the current exams are harder ( I am ONLY talking about languages ( French and Spanish)here, I have no expertise in other areas)
I accept that if you are academically very bright and a good linguist you could pass the old ( 20 years ago) o level with little or no work ( viz my o level german in the sixth form)because you could manipulate the grammar easily and learnt just key vocab - but the number of people who that referred to was very very small. For most of the ability range the old exams were hard slog even though they didn't require the wide communicative prowess that today's do - if an 'average' student ( 50th centile -ie CSE grade 4 then) put in a similar amount of effort/time then and now I'd like to bet a significant amount they'd get a GCSE 'C' now - ie old CSE grade 1.
Can I just reiterate also though that I'm not saying that this is a bad thing AT ALL. I'm passionate about teaching languages _ I've been head of department in a comprehensive here for 10 years ( just had a 2 year break from it and am going back to job share it in September hopefully)and about teaching it to all abilities - one of the things I'm proudest of is that for students who actually attend school a reasonable amount of the time ( 50% +) we have a 100% record with GCSE grades A-G and there's no way we could do that if things hadn't changed - only 20% of the ability range could ever really ''succeed'' with the old exam.

You had to work to get through O levels and CSE's. GCSE's in general are easier than O levels- I have occasionally used my old O level textbook to illustrate a point for my A level student's (not often- there's just one photo which shows something useful). Some of the stuff in there is too hard for A levels these days. I'm not arguing for a return to O levels (!!) and I'm not saying that todays student's have an easy ride (they're under far more pressure than I ever was), but in terms of academic content the syllabuses have been reduced.

BTW- my slant is on Biology and Sciences- not languages.

My French exam- GCSE- taken the 2nd year after they were introduced was certainly absolutely peasily easy- I gat an A and everyone, including my very nice French teacher, was astonished because my French was appalling and I didn't do any work. I just wittered on in Franglais about my pet hamster, as I recall. I do think it would be logical to make the award of an exam reflect some kind of ability/competence in the subject area. On the other hand I was very pleased to get it so perhaps it was good for my confidence generally and it doesn't matter that I can't speak French?

Yes - well they've got even easier since then Scummy ( I know, I was teaching them then and am now!)- and I've just popped back becasue I take back on further thougth what I said about it possibly being harder for the very able to get a languages 'A' with no effort now than then - a colleague (French Italian teaching background) a couple of years back decided she wanted to learn Spanish ( from scratch), so over a summer hols she self taught with a view to joining a GCSE evening class in the September, after a few lessons she decided it was a joke and joined the A level class and worked reasonably hard ( well within reason, she was working full time as a French teacher so we're not talking THAT hard - but she is/was very bright) and 2 years later got an A at A level.

I'll take your word for it then Bayleaf as I don't know enough about the actual syllabus content of the old O levels. I'm basing what I'm saying on my experience of other syllabuses and the fact that my (GCSE) French is considerably better in terms of being understood than DP's O level French.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if students can pass the new exams where they wouldn't have passed the old one, that doesn't necessarily mean it is "easier" (although it might be!). As you say the new syllabus is a lot better in other ways and I think that it would be counter-productive of the gvmnt to declare that the new exams are easier.

Well done on your GCSE record anyway. Ojala que mas profesores de idiomas en escuelas publias tuvieran tu entusiasmo

[sorry, showing off. "If only more language teachers in state schools had your enthusiasm" for everyone else]

My internet connection is slow today. Didn't see the last message - someone who already speaks Italian (and to an extent french) would find Spanish an absolute doddle. I've met Italians here who simply speak Italian to Spanisrds, who reply in Spanish and everyone understands!

Bayleaf, it's interesting to read about the modern approach to languages and for me it just illustrates that one-size-will-never-fit-all!!

My ds got a mediocre pass at Standard Grade (Scot = GCSE) and heaved a sigh of relief that his second language days were over. He then somehow ended up taking French at uni, where they use 'old-fashioned' methods, as when I took my O Levels, and he stormed ahead of his peers. His mind seems much more able to process information when it is presented in such a regimented manner and he ended up doing so well he was asked to take Honours! He declined, in favour of Psychology, but never in a million years did I imagine he's do so well in a language. The French girlfriend may have enthused him, of course, and also put him to shame as she speaks five langauges inc Arabic.

Bayleaf - as a slight aside to this, can I ask what your views are on teaching (or at least exposing) languages to children at a younger age than is usual in schools at the moment?

I've always regretted not learning languages younger, and I'd quite like to give DS that chance once he's old enough. There are French language clubs in my area which start from around 3/4 years old. I quite like the idea, but do you think that's too young? We do spend quite a bit of time in France, so he would get exposed to the language that way too.

Also I'm not sure if learning a language outside of school would cause him problems later on when he came to learn French at school. Would having some prior knowledge of a language just mean that he would be covering things he already knew, and thus get bored and switch off the idea of languages? As a language teacher, given a class of novices, what would your reaction be to finding one in their midst who knew at least the rudiments already? I know as a ski teacher that although higher level classes where all the participants are of a comparable standard are great to teach, handling this type of mixed ability/experience scenario poses a lot more problems than having a class all at one level, and it's all too easy to end up not giving enough attention to the one who is already self sufficient.

Yes Gill - the ski analogy does hold - but so much depends on the teacher and the group. In a mixed ability group of year 11s there is FAR more difference caused by natural differences in innate ability than by a kid who's had a few classes - the only real issues are when we get the odd kid who has lived in France - but even then their writing isn't up to scratch usually.

IF the teacher is lazy/not great then it might not give much of a boost as they will just be told to sit quietly rather than given extension work- but my instinct would be to do it ( tho I wouldn't bankrupt myself or go to great lengths - just if it was reasonably feasible) if only because if you can get them enthusiastic early then they are probably more likely to succeed and have enthusiasm for it when they do it later at school. I would certainly be inclined to offer a club round here when dd is of age if ther isn't already one and if I can get them cheaper than usual ( car boot sale??? ) then I'd buy the Muzzy vids fo her) I'd also try hard to persuade her to go and stay with friends in France WITHOUT us as young as possible as it's that sort of immersion that really improves oral communication/fluency.
It breaks my heart that ther is such a shortage of teachers and so much bad language teaching around - especially when I think that dd will probably end up being subjected to it - but then when I think back I think all but one of my teachers were very mediocre and I still enjoyed it...

LUcy - yes your spoken french 'should' be better than dp's if you did GCSE and he did o level - just because of the change in the syllabus to make it more 'practical use'- O level oral included things like learning by heart the answers to 100 questions - one of which I remember was 'a quoi sert un aspirateur?' We always wondered if French Customs stopped people on arrival and refused to let them in if they couldn't give a 3 point answer explaining what you use a Hoover for..... ( and I can STILL remember my answer! Talk about retaining useless knowledge!!!)

blimey, bayleaf, you must be MUCH younger than me (well, yes, if your dad did O level in 1948 you will be, mine never got that far but if he had it would have been in 1936) as I did O level in 1966 and have no recollection of learning any questions or answers, or indeed anything much other than scraping through, much to the disgust of my teacher. (Who thought I shouldn't have passed at all, I mean.)

I do think that making 16-yr-olds do intellectual exercises for their own sake, rather than actually learning a language in order to communicate better, is not a good argument for returning to older standards...and "learning by heart the answers to 100 questions" sounds even more pointless than analysing plays by 18th C French writers (though that may well have been A Level - so long ago now the details have drifted away...but a boy I know who spent 6 months in France aged 9-10 and took his GCSE a year or two early, and is now doing a degree in French at Leeds, is studying (amongst other things) Maupassant who, I'm almost sure, we did do at O Level.)

Probably in less depth though.

Isn't the Govt talking about introducing French in primary school now? (Which will ruin the business of those who operate Le Club Francais locally.)

I'm 38 Janh - and yes the gov is talking about it - but then they have on and off for years - but there aren't the teachers ( they're talking about letting french native language students do it - hardly a recipe for success, at that level it's NOT a complex grasp of the language you need it's teaching skills to enthuse/control 8 year olds!) But what is the point if they then let teenagers drop it at 14???

I must have done the same syllabus at French as bayleaf cos I can remember the 100 questions!

I also did German although I did that for five year and French for two prior to O level. We took different boards in the two languages and didn't do 100 q's in German.

I'm 38 and I don't remember the 100 questions. But then I just scraped through mine so that's probably why!

I easily got 9 A grades at GCSE in the 3rd year of them, then got a huge wake up call at A level and had to actually start doing some work. Throughout my 5th form my parents were being told that I was not trying, and disrupting other people - all because I was bored out of my skull. I took my French GCSE oral on the last full day of school - after 3 pints of Becks at lunchtime. And I got a distinction!
2 years later my oral Franch was fine for A level, but I struggled with the literature papers because all my teaching up until that point had been about communicating, not getting the grammar or spelling correct.
My French and German teachers were fighting a losing battle though - they had to explain simple grammatical constructs such as secondary clauses, adjective agreement, because we didn't know what these were in English, let alone a different language.

League tables - does anyone know where you can view the value-added league tables that were pubished last week?

Thanks

sed, try this:

education.guardian.co.uk/secondaryschoolsguide2003/0,12803,878675,00.html

it's fiddly though as you have to keep tracking up and down to remind yourself what the columns mean. (Hard copy is definitely better for this kind of thing!)

Yes Prufrock - we've found this a lot with kids who do well at GCSE - A level is a big shock. They think they're really good and then suddenly they find it hard because there is much more grammar at A level. Our top sets still do a fair amount of grammar at GCSE( they go to sixth form college from here and they hve always done far more than any other feeder school) but they still come back really shocked by the change in emphasis and claim it is really hard compared to GCSE.

Thanks janh - that was v useful, though I can't decide how much it changes my view of the local school....

bayleaf - I found a set of Muzzy videos/cassettes today for £5 (guess where!). Doesn't have the books with it unfortunately, but they seem to be seperately available from the US distributors anyway.

Although what I'm about to say isn't directly linked to exams being easier or not I thought I'd put in my tuppence worth about learning a language. When I went to school we didn't get taught any languages until we started secondary school at the age of 11. I studied french for 4 years and passed my standard grade(scottish system) with a 3, which is a high general pass and I was so impressed as I was convinced I would fail. Since leaving school I have barely used my french apart from talking to the odd tourist in my old job in a restaurant and a few trips to Paris.
My dd is now 5 and started primary one last August. They start teaching them languages now when they are in primary 6. WE have already started her on learning french. Nothing major just some books, a couple of jigsaws and games and some french tapes with songs on them. She loves them. She can count to 10, say the names of various things, like fruits and household items. she can sing some of the songs along with the tapes although she doesn't always know what she's saying but she is picking it up. she can also say some small sentences, asking what is your name/my name is... etc. obviously this is all pretty basic but it gives her confidence and as far as we are concerened you are never to young to learn. I wish that they started teaching them when they first started school like in other countires. WE know some french people and some portugeuse people and the amount of languages they can speak from being taught at school is amazing to me. I was talking to one of them once telling them how our daughter is learning and they said but why bother when everyone else in the world can speak english? I think, personally, that is a sad train of thought and if you have the chance to learn a langauge given the chance that you should. The world is a smaller place nowadays and ok, so a lot of people speak english but it's always nice to go to another country and be able to converse in the local language.
also does anyone know if the Muzzy videos/tapes are worth the money as we have seen the adverts on tv but the cost puts me off buying them. If I knew they were really going to work I would consider maybe buying them.

OOOOOOOo Gill - I'm horribly envious! I couldn't go today as we were away - what an amazing bargain though!!!