Grammar GCSE results

[MrPickles73]

DS2 is in yr 8 at grammar school. Overall the teaching seems very good and he's getting on well. There is lots of homework (1.5hrs a night). It's all boys and outside of SE England so perhaps not as competitive to get into as some grammars.

We were late to the grammar school idea so did 5 months tutoring to get in. Some of the kids in his tutoring group had 3 years X twice a week tutoring. It's quite middle class and only 5% FSMs.

DS2 is bright but by no means a genius. He did well enough to get in but by no means aced it as some of his class mates did. I would expect he will get 7-9s for GCSEs.

According to the year WhatsApp group a few of the parents have already bought the GCSE revision guides.. I was amazed.

So given all this what surprises me is the average GCSE results is not that amazing and some kids are getting 5s. How is this? Parents go berserk to get their kid in and then stop pedaling? kids pushed to hard too young and give up? They are all sitting on computer games? Something else?

Parents go berserk prepping their kids to get in, then think their job is done and that the rest is up to school. MIL did this with DH in the 80s and he significantly underachieved (he also has undiagnosed ND which made school way harder for him socially/academically than it should have been).

We are in a Grammar school area and parents were tutoring from year 4. Some had 3 tutors for maths english and NVR. Many of these kids left grammar at 16 as they did not achieve the grades for 6th form. They did not achieve anything higher than their peers at comprehensive schools.

I think often behaviour is better at grammar schools but apart from that the academic advantage is narrow

The problem with tutoring is that at the point that many of the kids get into the grammar school they have already overachieved. They have effectively been hothoused, when in reality they probably wouldn’t have got in on their natural ability. Unless they sustain that for the next 5 years they won’t be in the top 10-15% of pupils and get the top grades. My advice is to leave or mute the WhatsApp group. It sounds like it’s full of anxious parents - you don’t need 5 years of that. The school will know exactly what they’re doing re. GCSEs and provided your DS is a good student he’ll be absolutely fine.

@MrPickles73 when you say some kids are getting 5s, do you mean that some students are getting 5s for most subjects, or that there are some 5s scattered amongst the whole year group’s results?

There is likely to be a specific explanation behind each grammar school student that achieves mostly 5s – it could be due to problems at home, extreme teenage rebellion, undiagnosed SEN, illness, school refusal etc.

However, I don’t think it’s uncommon, even in a grammar school, to see a smattering of lower scores across a range of subjects. A few possible reasons off the top of my head:

• A student that is very weak at maths (heavily tutored to pass the 11 plus)
• A student that is forced to do a foreign language GCSE but resents it so doesn’t try
• A student that is very bright but struggles with writing (the state 11 plus in many areas is computer marked and mostly multiple choice)
• A student whose parents only value STEM subjects and have decided that their child WILL become a doctor and therefore provides tutors for maths/sciences and discourages effort in the other subjects.

I suspect all of the above is valid, Thankyou.

There does seem a heavy skew in parental enthusiasm for maths and sciences whilst English and mfl results are not as stellar.

Thankyou. I guess I'm just having a wobble! He enjoys the teaching very much!

I should add the GS GCSE results are more than double the local comp so without going private it's clear the GS is the way to go.

My DD is at a grammar in the West Midlands. Every year parents agonise over whether their child will get into one of the 'best' grammars, but all the grammars in this region achieve excellent results.

We took the view that, as long as the school's results showed some 8s and 9s for all the academic subjects plus any that our DD was interested in, the teaching and general standards should be good enough for her to reach her potential if she puts the effort in.

DD's school results shows a similar skew towards maths/science over English/MFL. I'm convinced it largely reflects the cultural bias among the students (or their families) rather than the teaching. DD loves English and MFL and really appreciates those teachers' passion for their subject - and DD stands out more in those classes!

Personally I’m really anti selection for secondary education. I grew up in a selective area and I was seen as a failure for not passing my 11+. I have 2 brothers - one who passed and went to grammar school and did well and one who failed originally but my parents appealed and he ended up going to grammar school but left with very few o levels. I did an apprenticeship over 7 years day release and ended up more qualified than either of them. There wasn’t any such thing as tutoring in those days (60’s and early 70’s) so how you did was a reflection of your true ability.

Just to add that the parents that bought revision guides early are daft because the syllabus or exam board could change and those guides would be outdated.

If a GS isn't getting v good results compared with the local comp (which will have had its top set removed) then something would be very wrong.

If you cream off most of the best students you'd expect to get the best results.

If your child is naturally gifted and from a household that cannot afford private, GS can be a way of lifting a child and giving them an extra opportunity. I have family that have benefitted from GS (before the days when parents bothered with tuition). So I have seen the benefits.
However some cannot take the pressure, miss their friends and wish they were still with them, need that constant tutoring but find other hobbies more interesting. Kids mental health can be stretched and you only have to watch the news to hear awful tragedies. Also consider then the downsides of GS, schools left with mainly lower ability students and not a mixed ability where many learn off their higher achieving peers.
I hear teachers say don’t send them if you have to hothouse them to get in, the pace is fast and they need to be able to keep up and have the intelligence to be able to also.
I’ve seen kids pouring over books in year 4 and 5 at afterschool groups for their siblings when their friends are off playing.
We want the best for our kids, but at what cost.

I would be very surprised if the comprehensive's GCSE results were anywhere near as good as the grammar's because they will have very different intakes, obviously in the intelligence levels of the pupils but also in many other socioeconomic aspects too - the grammar school will probably have far fewer pupil premium and looked after kids and the grammar school will have far more university-educated and middle class parents.

Poor kids. All that hot housing & pressure & lots of homework AND GCSE revision guides already. I expect some burn out/rebel before GCSEs.

I went to a grammar in the 80s when we didn't have tutoring, I expect that is why there were a fair number of kids from the local rough estates who attended & did very well. I wonder how socially mixed grammar schools are now.

All the tutoring & pressure on kids who have overachieved in the 11+ but can't match up to the standards required is really unfair on those children and seems irresponsible at a time when so many kids are struggling with mental health.

Other explanations I can think of:

• the teaching quality is not particularly good and is better at the comp
• the grammar school does not do many teacher-guided revision classes and the comp does (my DCs were at a comp and went to revision classes virtually every afternoon after school in year 11 and also in the school holidays)
• the grammar may not that good at teaching exam technique
• they have a large number of very anxious or burnt out kids
• they make kids sit some GCSEs in year 10
• they only offer very academic options and not many of the 'easier' subjects. RE for example is notoriously easy
• the grammar might focus more on A-Level results
• maybe the grammar has a lower end intake? Is there a more popular grammar near to them so that the highest flying pupils tend to go the other school? And maybe the comp has a slightly above average intake.

Between 11+ and GCSEs they become teenagers. That comes with some or all of the following: less compliance, drink/drugs, mental health issues, a lack of interest in some subjects and lack of motivation. Obviously a lot of good stuff as well but the overall outcome isn't always a full fleet of top grades.

It’s because the kids have been tutored to get in, so unless parents have kept up with that level of 1:1 input, some kids will struggle.

Personally, I didn’t tutor my kids for the 11+ test. One passed it, and the other one was a few marks short. The one that passed it has flown through education and got very good results without much effort, just naturally academic. My other one is at the local comp and is doing ok, on target for 7’s and 8’s. I’m pretty sure that if we had tutored him to get into grammar he would have struggled with the pace of it and ended up with lower results

ChocolateBunny61 I thought like you that there wasnt tutoring back in the 60s. However ,my SIL who was widely expected to pass but didnt (late 50s ) .said that there were children they knew of who had been tutored .according to her parents!

My DS didnt pass The 11 plus, despite having a tutor since yr 4. Went to boys secondary modern, passed all GCSEs .Went on to Uni MSC in physics Now good job in industry

Didn’t tutor my DD for the eleven plus. She just did a few practice papers in the Summer Holiday prior to the exam.
She didn’t make the required cut off mark (only just off though) so went to the local comp. She came out with 12 amazing GCSE’s and 3 A* and an A at A level. Best some of her friends who were at the Grammar by a lot.
Grammars aren’t the be all and end all at all. Though you think that they were when you hear a lot of the chatter round my way.

You have drawn entirely the wrong conclusion here!

I also think people’s perceptions of ‘good’ can be skewed a bit by the cohort eg nationally I think the percentage of kids that get all 9s is only about 0.2% but there are some schools that seem to have an awful lot of that very small pool of kids

A grammar that isn’t one of the super selective as will have a reasonable ability range so you’d expect a range of grades. I was looking at rough scores for cat4 testing and gcse predictions and google tells me the following:

SAS 115: likely grades 6 and 7 (top 20%)
SAS 130: likely grades 7-9 (top 2%)

Young people change a lot between 12 and 16.
Even the best schools a few students get a random 4-5.
Check out some of the top 50 schools there will be a couple lower grades.
Why do you see it as a problem?

The GS is a long way (geographically) from our local comp so they are not fishing in the same pond.

Local comp is poor - results below national average. A friend of ours has had no science teacher for 3 years, sport is non existent, they don't do A levels.. so not an attractive option.

Is RE notoriously easy?

I went to a grammar school and used to teach in one.

The teaching is not necessarily 'better' in quality, but you certainly get through more content in the given time, because the children are generally better behaved, compliant, and mostly enjoy the process of learning. Lessons are fast paced, pitched to the top level of the class' intelligence, and the expectation is that you will 'get it' the first time. A lot of grammar school teachers - in my experience - are not as adept at differentiating for students with additional needs or for whom a subject is more academically challenging, and so when students do struggle, they can get left behind in a way they don't in a comp - you are, to an extent, just expected to get on with it.

This will impact the results and will be why some students do less well in certain subjects. True 'all-rounders' are rare - most students fall into Maths/Science or English/Arts/Humanities binaries in terms of their interests and natural abilities, and so even a bright grammar school student will probably excel at a particular cluster of subjects and be more average in another.

You also have to remember that a good 30% of students getting into a grammar are going to be academically average at best due to being tutored beyond their abilities - when I taught in a grammar, we had to stream the students because some of them were really weak in Maths or English. The bottom set English/Maths class would have been aiming for Cs and Bs (before the system changed).

The expectation that just because you're going to a grammar school, you'll be getting all 9s and if not, you've been failed by the teachers, is really a far too simplistic way of looking at it. A tiny proportion of students nationally get a string of 9s - if everyone who was reasonably bright were able to achieve grades like that, they wouldn't be worth the paper they're written on (and I'm not convinced they are anyway, saying that!).

I am of the view that anyone who thinks forcing a child / young person to have a longer working day than their parents, required to undertake a selection of 'enriching' activities, have the next few years 'mapped out' as Good School - Good University - Earn Lots with no deviation is an appalling way to develop a well rounded and intelligent adult. It seems a particular middle class paranoia, and without evidence that somehow these 'straight A grades' just solve every problem...

Social skills, creativity, following passions, learning to work with others, empathy, problem solving, self-control and personal management skills, resilience, risk taking etc - these are all skills that so many young people with straight-A's miss out on in my experience.

Some of the greatest achievers 'failed' at school and more.

Any number of things; puberty, discovering the other sex, parties, not naturally able, some subjects don’t suit so they lose interest etc