Has anyone successfully gotten their school to add an extra year group to stop overcrowding in classrooms?

[chickpea4]

Found out my child's class will have 40 students from January. I'm sure the new family and the student are lovely, but the class only has 1 full time teacher and one part time assistant. As we move into Year 5 and Year 6 which is are formative years, we'd like to petition for the school to split into 2 smaller 20 student classes.

Has anyone successfully done this? About 10 years ago our school did have two year groups and split year groups for younger years, but being based in central London many families chose to leave during the lockdowns and Covid and enrolment declined. However, now with the private school VAT and more families choosing not to send their children to private school in Y3 we are seeing many classes with 40+ students in each class (Y3 and up).

I'd love to hear how you positioned this request to the school, and better yet if it was part of an academy!

While I am amazed any school would go to 40 in a class... honestly, I don't think you stand a chance unless at least one of the year groups either side is sufficiently low that they can mix and end up with two mixed year classes of say 32 each.

Paying for a whole extra teacher is impossible in most current state school budgets.

A friend of mine has a daughter in year 4 who is in a class of 43. It’s not an issue you can solve with a petition because the school is also not happy they’ve had to do it.

Have they room for an extra classroom and have they the money for another teacher? Likely answer is no to both questions.

I suspect it’s because overall the school doesn’t have enough students to justify an extra teacher. They could make a mixed year class potentially if an adjoining year is larger

How they afford teacher?

If every parent can contribute £1000 you might be able to get them to do it. Otherwise - how?? As others have said, budgets are soooo squeezed. But also - where in London? Schools round here (Z1/Z2 border) are desperate for kids. I’m amazed your school is so full!

I suspect the school doesn’t like it any more than you do

they can’t manage up an extra classroom and they certainly can’t magic up an extra salary.

They're not going to magic anything up in response to a petition.
However it is very reasonable to ask whether the large class size will continue, especially if numbers have been rising. If numbers have gone up significantly across KS2, there may be enough extra funds to run an extra class.

If there are over 40 in two adjacent years, then maybe they can move to three year 5/6 classes next year, or possibly two classes but split into three for maths/English (so they only need an extra teacher for half the day).

Now is a good time to be asking about NEXT year, and also thinking about what other options you have. If the school realise that they are possibly going to lose pupils to the less full school down the road, they might be more inclined to talk about changes next year. If they are planning changes, they need to make sure parents know before they start taking children out.

Are y4 or y6 big? A mixed year class is a more realistic solution as it won’t require an extra teacher,

You might just have a chance if each of the 40 families donated £1.5k a year.

How big are the year groups above and below? Maybe if one of them is small the school could mix the years. If they’re just as big then there won’t be anything they can do. They can’t produce money out of thin air to pay for another teacher. It’s ridiculous and I’d be unhappy if my child was in such a large class but all the petitioning in the world won’t give the school the money they need to fund an extra class. And if the other classes are as big then all the parents would want all the classes to be split.

It isn't up to the school, the LA must be aware of the class size and this is a deliberate decision. Also many schools simply don't have a spare classroom so they can't add an extra class, even if the funding for an extra teacher is available - which is unlikely.
I think that there are likely to be classes in the school that are too small so the LA have given places to more children to lift the average class size. Odds are that children will be leaving your class too before long so they will add extra places where they can next year too.
Are you in an area where parents take their children out to send them to private schools before secondary school age? Or an area where there is a Swedish school? Both us these reduce class numbers higher up the school.

I don’t think a petition will work either as school will be as unhappy as you are - especially that poor teacher! I would not want to teach a class that big - 30 is enough!

if I was a parent I would be trying my best to secure a tutor for English and maths to make sure my child kept up as I really doubt the teacher can have their eye on the ball with 40 odd pupils.

That’s outrageous and I’d be writing to your local MP: 40 is so clearly unacceptable for all of those kids in the class. People were kicking up a stink when we reached 34 and had two full time TAs in the class as well as the teacher. Throw in some additional needs and that class will be completely untenable.

It’s very unlikely the school chose this, unless they’re refused to present a case in appeals.

It would be reasonable to ask how they are going to manage the impact of such a big class, which you can expect them to do and plan for. You can’t expect them to make a whole new class when they presumably do not have the money.

How many have they got over 4 years? Approx 80 over 3 classes will be more financially manageable than 40 in two classes (so Yr3/4, 4/5, 5/6)

Appreciate everyone's responses. I hope it isn't a total lost cause and will update if there is a positive update over the course of the year. Also good to know I'm not crazy thinking 40 in a class is way too many.

Historically you would have a handful of families go private for Y3 - so we had reception, Y1 and Y2 classes with two classes (40+ students divided into two classes). We were always told, don't worry the class will get smaller as people leave, however in the past two years (and especially since VAT on private schools was introduced) no one has left! I think post-covid people are more settled/not moving as much as they were in 2020-2022 as well.

The school expects us to trust that the teacher knows how to manage the class, which is fair - but I don't know how she does it with only one part time assistant!

Many many families do private tutoring (we started this year) - but the teacher has told me that makes things difficult as well, as that creates an even wider range of abilities.

One part time assistant is really bad. The class I mentioned upthread with 43 children has one teacher and about 3 TAs. Still far from ideal but better than your set up

Poor, poor teacher. Yes, you can teach large classes but marking and reporting on so many pupils will be almost undoable - and good luck if there are any serious behavioural issues in the class. Well done, Labour. VAT on school fees was a really great idea.

On a practical level, I would assume there will be no extra money for an additional class and would look for a tutor for maths, English and science. Perhaps join together with another couple of families and do it as a small group if costs are a worry?

I’d write to the government and ask for some of the money raised by the VAT. This is what was promised….more teachers. The class size has ballooned due to the VAT so surely more teachers should be provided. 40+ isn’t even childcare, it’s a loosely defined holding pen. Imagine how many of those are on the SEN register.

Ate you saying there's approx 40 children in each year group... but in some years there is 20 children in a class, but 40 in other year groups? So the school actually has the right amount of teachers, but the classes are just badly distributed rather than using mixed year classes?

Why isn't the school refusing to take these extra children? They are full, and once they are full they can refuse to take additional children (unless directed via the EHCP process).

I don't understand the situation though - are you saying that in EYFS/KS1 they have classes of 20 or fewer (40 kids across 3 year groups in 2 classes) but somehow they have 40 plus in a year group once they get to KS2??

If they have 40 in a class AND mixed years this really does sound insane. And as if you are living in a London I don't know at all - in our borough and the surrounding ones loads of schools are closing due to a lack of kids, not overstuffed...

I’d be removing my child from a school that was prepared to do this. I’d move areas if there wasn’t an alternative state school to one that crap. This is not a school that is particularly focussed on supporting individual children. Don’t leave this. It’s not ok.

complain to head, governors, local MP etc. they need to have a plan that doesn’t involve one class teacher for 40 kids.

It would be more achievable to get a 2nd teaching assistant.