Harsh opinion - is it fair to give work experience to students who in reality haven't the academic ability to enter the profession e.g. medcine?

[mids2019]

I work in a large NHSq trust and we are continually being asked by our widening participation team to take on work experience students for a range of medical careers including clinical science and medicine.
A lot of the children unfortunately are forecast 3/4/5s at GCSE yet schools and the widening participation team keep saying we should be giving work experience to these children who in reality won't be qualified for some professiions out of what I see is a misguided sense of fairness.

The medics push back at this saying they simply have no time and time would be wasted enthusing a child about a profession they would be unlikely to be able to do.

The medics are quite happy to take students from a locally high performing grammar school as a matter of course unofficially (and often due to parental connections)

A friend was keen to widen access to medicine at Oxbridge. He wrote to 45 localish state schools offering to act as a link and organise work experience at the hospital, a walk around the college and longer term mentoring. Not a single one even acknowledged his letters.

@Efrogwraig I doubt that. They would not be taken into A level courses. They were presumably much older and got another degree first? It’s almost impossible to get a decent grade at Chrmistry A level with a 3/4 at GCSE.

@BCBird I tried that tactic with DN who was bright enough to have a go. She didn’t want to join the rich southerners and DBIL said it wasn’t for the likes of them. You can but try!

No, access courses.

I suspect you're most right. However, sometimes low grades are due to academic ability and other times is due to lack of studying or applying themselves to the subject. I have a friend whose is teacher. She advised me one of the most important thing is to instil confidence and resilience in your child as she has observed, that confident children can higher attainment than children with her academic ability because they tend to perish through challenges through self belief.

@Efrogwraig So that is entirely different. They are adults. Not really dependent on work experience at school!

No they weren't. They were school kids who went on to be medics. From very non traditional backgrounds. Now advocates for the widening participation programmes.

How do you know what your friend’s granddaughter got in her GCSEs? I can’t even remember my own kids’ grades.

Access courses are for post 19 year olds who didn’t get the A levels to go to uni.

What's this, the Spanish inquisition??
a. We discussed it.
b. Yes indeed.

Very defensive. I merely ask that the story hangs together.

Sounds like @TizerorFizz was right that they were adults when they made the decision if they did access courses. Her point stands that it’s difficult to get a top grade in Chemistry A level with a 3/4 at GCSE. Some schools will require a minimum grade in that subject to study it at A level.

I can see your point, but I also don’t think children should be written off by predictions made when they were 11 from a set of standardised tests. As a secondary school teacher I’ve seen students predicted low grades absolutely excel and beat expectations when they were inspired. (I’ve also seen my predicted high fliers fail to pass) Denying them work experience would be crushing and make these low predictions come true. Also there are lots of careers within the NHS other than becoming a doctor, so maybe you can focus on giving a broader experience within different departments including admin and office based teams?

Presumably though by the time they are doing work experience they have updated real life predicted grades, not those based on SATs in primary?

@MirabaiUsually at least a minimum 7 at GCSE. Anyone aspiring to be a Doctor 8 or 9!

It’s possible to take access courses and my friend is doing a PhD in psychology after doing an access course. It’s possible for medicine too but these courses are for adults. I’ve no idea what GCSEs my friend has but by doing an access course in her 40s and then a psychology degree, she’s then built up to PhD via a masters. However, being honest, this is easier than being a medical doctor via an access course. Mainly because the competition for medical places is so high. I’d also say the academic background matters more too in terms of hard sciences.

I think the idea of comprehensive education has had a side effect of saying well your all in an 'equal' school so the life opportunities presented to you should be equal where of course they are not and heavily dependent on exam qualifcations.

This leads to schools and organisations to be under pressure to present every job as a possible avenue for them (e.g. medicine) when the possibly cruel fact is that they arent.

It seems this may be more of a personal issue for you than a work-related matter or professional dilemma. From your comment, it appears you're suggesting that children from comprehensive schools should not aspire to careers such as medicine. I find that to be a rather odd stance particularly as some doctors attended comprehensive schools. In my experience, the only children get pushed into doing medicine tend to be bright and many of them are not actually suited to do medicine. Many doctors I know were pushed and even forced to medicine - usually they tend to be unhappy with their career.

You don't need work experience in a hospital to apply for medicine. Unis are well aware how hard it is to get unless you have connections.

And I've never known a WP WEX that doesn't set minimum grades - v simple to do if over subscribed. If not predicted 7s then no offer. Most involve an application form too so need to demonstrate commitment. Why not just introduce this at your hospital ?

Although is this just a general NHS WEX scheme or dedicated to prospective medics (most hospitals do both versions) ? Because if it's just general then those 3/4 students can still do roles in the hospital. So opening their eyes to all the options is fantastic.

Indeed.

I work with an organisation that is involved in mentoring students interested in medicine. The mentors are all current med school students and went to state schools and want to widen participation.

Also weird as Grammar schools will have WP students too ?

@mids2019 Comps do have plenty of dc who can aspire to be doctors and get the necessary grades. I think a better way forward is to sift on grades and not worry about school. No one should have parents organising anything for them - that practice should be well and truly dumped.

I’m a physio and my DD wanted to do physiotherapy work experience to support her uni application. We had a bloody hard time getting her in as she doesn’t fall under the ‘widening participation’ criteria since she’s a grammar student! Considering you’re actively looked down upon if you apply without relevant NHS work experience it’s scandalous to disadvantage kids for having good academic ability.

I’m all for widening participation but they’re actively discriminating against kids purely based on their educational background. It needs to work both ways!

Schooling doesn't determine WP ? State schools all treated the same.

@BeatriceAndBeaucouldn't she go and work with you ?

I work privately so it’s not ideal. Have various NHS colleagues who would love to have her but it’s ‘computer says no’ from management!

@BeatriceAndBeau so silly. It's so hard to get into a hospital. Why medicine doesn't need to to do it these days. BSMS have a fantastic MOOC.

Has the trust checked the euality policy - this doesn't sound legal.