Is DandT considered to be a soft subject for Uni

[newtothis15]

My DC is tinking to drop either History or DandT at GCSE. I think she loves History as more inytellectual, but at the same time content heavy subjects makes her discouraged and she is now saying to drop History and to go with DamdT

I am trying to encourage her to do the analysis before making the decision.

Shall I let her know that DandT considred to be a soft subject in case she would like to go to good Uni etc

Ok, if in y11.
What is predicted grade for each.
How does the summer exam timetable look with both individually excluded.
Would school even permit one to be dropped.
Depending on other subjects school may insist on history due to buckets and progress 8. Was hist or geog a compulsory choice?

I’m aware of entry requirements. Which, by the can include BTECs and apprenticeships. However, DT is often where the get exposure to the hands on experience. It is a starting point

I guess it depends what type of engineering you are referring to. Structural, civil and fire engineers in my family, none of which have 'practical' or 'hands on' experience and are useless at DT. All are excellent at calculating, maths, physics and chemistry.

To do engineering you need physics and maths. Not DT

You don't need anything other than physics and maths (except for chem engineering). Possibly computing is the most relevant other subject nowadays but uni courses cover that. I don't know about DT but DDs electronics design gcse (dont know if that's even a thing now) was definitely useful to her during her MEng degree - e.g she was the only one in a group project who could solder competently.

And a tech gcse can be very useful for budding engineers if they want to try to get an Arkwright award, which needs a project.

It could be said that for most subjects at college you only need English and Math.
For most Engineering specialisms having a good grade at DT wouldn't be sneered at.

@ItsYourMoneyRalf I was recently at Cambridge and a third of the engineering undergraduates at the college I was at had DT at A-level.

No, it’s not NEEDED. Maths and physics, yes. But the professor I spoke to said it’s highly valuable to have as it puts the theory into real world practical use. It’s definitely not an A-level or GCSE subject to put down or think of as “soft”.

I was recently at Cambridge and a third of the engineering undergraduates at the college I was at had DT at A-level.

There it would presumably as a 4th a level as they pretty much have to have physics, maths and FM. That wouldn't be the case everywhere else of course - I’m sure it’d be fine as one of three subjects for other places.

@ErrolTheDragon The college I was at, yes, it was a 4th A-level as there are a few Cambridge colleges that specify maths, FM and physics as compulsory A-levels for engineering.

For those colleges that don’t require FM it was seen as a perfectly acceptable and valued third A-level (although admittedly most have FM). I don’t have the stats on that though.

I find it a bit laughable that nobody would bat an eyelid for someone taking art and going on to architecture, but for some reason DT is poo pooed for those wanting to study engineering. The poo pooing isn’t coming from the universities though - they love it - so long, of course, the maths and physics requirements are met. “Far more useful than History” were the words used.

My ds chose DT over History at GCSE. He's now doing DT at A-level and predicted an A in it. (A* and B in his other subjects.) He's applying for Comp Sci at uni. His school advised him that it was better for him to get a good grade at an apparently unrelated subject, than a poor grade at Further Maths. Which was excellent advice, as Maths is turning out to be his weakest subject.

It is important to study subjects that you can do well in, that you enjoy and have the will to study.

At GCSE, it doesn't really matter which extra subjects she takes, so long as she includes the usual mix (maths, English, a mfl, a humanity, 2 or 3 sciences) and anything she wants to do at A level.

For A level, it's recommended to take at least 2 'facilitating subjects'. In these lists, A level DT is seen as a soft subject, but is fine if it's a good fit for what she wants to do and her other a levels are facilitating.

https://www.studentnavigator.co.uk/choosing-your-a-level-subjects/

Facilitating subjects is an outdated term and this advice is not current. Yes, a French degree will probably need A level French, but there’s nothing wrong with taking DT, sociology and psychology, as long as you understand you are closing doors to biology or English lit etc.

Also while a mix at GCSE is good, MFL GCSE is not needed for uni. Unless studying MFL obvs.

Anyway - the dc in question is in year 11 and not wanting to take DT or history for A level.

Would comp sci be a good choice at uni if he finds maths tricky? My DS is applying now and all his courses emphasize the need for strong maths (and require A or A star), much more than a computer science A level in fact.

@clary The word facilitating might be outlawed but the notion is not. As we can see from the discussion above, Maths and Physics facilitate engineering degrees. It’s always worth keeping doors open and it’s important to read the Cambridge guide to choosing A levels if dc are looking at a very competitive course/uni. Saying it doesn’t matter doesn’t help social mobility or under represented dc getting to the best unis. No doubt some would take maths and DT A levels for engineering but the top ones would not. Obviously this query was about GCSEs but A level choices do matter and should not be trivialized.

The only reason she should do history not D+T is if she wants to do History at A level, or if she is only likely to pass 3 or 4 subjects and is more likely to pass history than D&T. If both D+T or History are likely to become one more pass for things that count in jobs that say "need X number of passes at GCSE" but never be a subject that she needs for a further course or job, I would say go with what she most enjoys.

Obviously I am more than aware that certain subjects are needed for certain degrees – I said as much in my post actually.

Yes you are well advised to take maths and physics A level if you want to study engineering; if English lit is your degree choice, then you'll need that at A level. And so on. Tho interestingly it's more than possible to study history or geography, both on the Fac Subj list, without taking them at A level.

I never said the choice of A level subjects doesn't matter. Of course it does and DC would be well advised to consider it. How often have we all seen threads on "my DC wants to study engineering but didn't take physics/maths at a top uni and didn't take FM" or similar.

But BUT a pp said students are recommended to take at least (!) two Fac Subj – I would say that is good advice if they really don't know what they want to do and there are subjects on that list they really enjoy; but if they know they want to take art, psychology and DT, and they realise that that means they are closing a good number of doors (all A level choices close doors, but those choices would close more doors than, for example, Eng lit, French and German, or Maths, biology and chemistry), then I don't see an issue. It's not a problem choosing A levels that won't let you be an engineer, or a doctor, or an Eng lit graduate, if you have no interest in any of those things anyway. Better by far to take three subjects you enjoy and will do well in than to force yourself into a rigid list of subjects that are not your bag.

(and I speak as someone who took three fac subjs at A level and whose DC took respectively three and two!)

Edited to add: of course it's the case that the OP is talking about GCSEs so it's what Joey would call a moo point for this matter; but all kinds of people may read a thread so a wider discussion may help them.

@clary The problem has been identified that students opting for “what they like” frequently do not understand that doors close. They might have no plan at all so haven’t been advised how best to keep doors open, they might, of course, not be academic enough for some combinations but schools can be poor at advising on combinations. Some subjects at uni don’t require any particular subject of course but, at a competitive uni, not studying History or Geography, if you want those degrees, might result in a less than competitive application. It’s just not worth the risk.

Ds has found several Comp Sci and Comp Sci adjacent courses that interest him, which do not require A in Maths. We’ll see whether he gets the offers.

History isn't just about knowledge of the past. Humanities graduates are in demand in lots of areas (finance and law for eg) because the skills are very transferable.

What I was going to say. All essay subjects teach how to read and assimilate material, select what is relevant, construct an argument, write to a word limit and/or deadline, keep to the point, write in an appropriate style...

And knowledge of the past isn't irrelevant either. Knowing what happened in the past is crucial to understanding what is happening now.

Well most of that I agree with for sure. Education and knowledge are always key.

It is the case though that you can study history at (I think) Liverpool without the A level. Also maybe Sheffield? Tho yes, if you want to do a history degree then why wouldn't you take it for A level?

Universities won't really care about the details of GCSEs as long as they've got the usual number including English and maths.
At A level, D&T is good alongside physics and maths particularly for engineering courses, but is seen as softer and will not satisfy most engineering course prerequisites - the essentials are physics and maths.