How does my 13+ apply for Grammar school admission without a 11+ entry exam.

[new2england]

Hi,

we are currently based in the US, planning a move to UK in March 2025. We have 2 sons who would need to join Yr 9 and Yr 11 in Sept 2025. Want them to join a selective grammar school but they have not taken their 11 plus. They re sharp so would probably do well in merit exams. Can they take their 13+ /15+ exams at this late stage and join a grammar school in their grade at this late stage?. What options do I have? P. S. We are looking at either Surrey or Kent to move to.

What is your 15 year old hoping to study at university or A level? So as not to assume you know, A level will be 3 or 4 subjects studied for 2 years. You can generally pick any combination you like as long as they tick the boxes for the university course you are after.

There are also L3 BTECs - which are more coursework rather than exam based, but are equivalent of 3 A levels and are accepted by a lot of universities. Some people turn their noses up at them as not being for very academic DC - I know several kids who had mainly 8s and 9s in their GCSEs who have opted for this route as the course/style works better for them. Potentially it could be worth considering for a child new to the UK.

Whereabouts do you need to be for work? And are you planning to stay in the UK longterms?

Grammar is not always a 'better' option. There are some really good comprehensives that get great results - perfectly possible to be in top sets and have an almost identical education (but with more subject and extra curricular options) and come out with a string of top grades. (DD's comprehensive sends more to Oxbridge/Medicine each year than my old super-selective grammar does!)

@LIZS i think describing the Sutton/Kingston grammars as being in Surrey is just confusing the issue. They’re in London. Surrey has its own educational system and is 100% comprehensive with no selective schools at all.

In the U.K. schools that have grammar in their name can be either private (paid for) or state (free).

Only some areas of the U.K. have state grammars.

The competition to get in varies from incredibly difficult to just tricky.

If you move to an area of the UK that has state grammars then you can express a preference to the local authority (the beach of the state that deals with schools) which school you want.

They will give you a school with a space.

State grammars rarely have spaces open up (nobody in their right mind leaves one unless to move long distance). The place is given to students who meet the admissions policy see for example:

www.wealdofkent.kent.sch.uk/about/admissions/in-year-admissions

So realistically you would need to accept a place at whatever school you were offered (almost certainly not a grammar) and put in applications to all the grammars.

This is not a strategy with a high chance of success.

You would be better off sending your child to a comprehensive. This is more like an American junior high and senior high rolled together and they mostly have setting (known in the US as tracking) where students are in classes by attainment. So if your child is high ability (and beware that he may have zero knowledge of U.K. history for example) he will be in a "top set" with other high attaining students.

Based on what you say id pick where to live based on it NOT having grammars! When there are grammar schools, the comprehensives in the area can’t really be fully comp (due to top slicing). State schools (inc grammars) vary hugely. The comp my elder ones go to has stunningly high exam success and Oxbridge entrance rates. But I still think it’s a thin education compared to the one the youngest gets at a comp w much ropier numbers…

This. Find somewhere with good 11-16 comprehensives and great sixth forms. Surrey or Hampshire are the obvious choices.

Yes I know, but op mentioned Surrey in relation to state grammars and those are nearest, super-selective so no catchment and some pupils will apply from Surrey proper.

13+ isn't a grammar entry point, what you want isn't really relevant. If you go with state they will get a place wherever there is one; unless someone happens to be leaving a grammar school and your child beats the multiple others who will want the space, that'll be in a normal comprehensive.

I may well be wrong, and apologies if so, but my impression was that the US education was broader but in less depth. So the eldest would need to think about A level subjects and then do the pre Al level for that with GCSE maths and English on the side as they'd be useful going forwards.

It's the younger one that is more of a challenge , but I agree with others in that as you aren't going to get a grammar school place, an area without them and a good comp system that sets and streams would be your best bet.

Yikes OP. This is a tough one.

I don’t know if it matters but I believe that you need several years residence here in the U.K. to qualify for university places and not have to pay as an international student.

Our friends live in the US (he actually holds dual US/UK nationality whatever it’s called) & they came to the U.K. for his job and their kids did U.K. school yr 7 & 10 (freshman). It was hard on the freshman as he was working towards exams he knew he’d never sit (they were only staying a yr). Anyway - he has now returned to U.K. for uni but of course must pay international fees. His dad said the residency to not pay such high uni fees was about 7yrs.

3 years I think if you have citizenship.

Surrey to be fair does have quite a few postcodes for the Tiffin catchment and mine go to a Sutton grammar from Surrey - Epsom area in particular

that said the step from US is such the OP needs a US school

Why do you think your DC would get into grammar school?! It's very difficult, even for dc who are 'sharp'.

It covers things like nonverbal reasoning, which is not covered at school.

I'd look for private schools or good state schools that have availability. But really, don't move your dc over a GCSE year! You have no idea if your US school will have covered everything your dc will need to know to start GCSEs.

Agree that getting the boys into a grammar is likely to be so difficult/impossible that picking a non grammar area (with good comprehensive schools)- which is 90% of the country -likely to be a better bet. It’s definitely possible to get a good place for your y9 son. I think you will need to sort the eldest privately, though entering him at year 10 might be possible

As others have said, you are likely better off avoiding an area with grammar schools.

To give you an idea of schools in Surrey there is a government website that provides details for all schools in England:

https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/find-a-school-in-england

So, for example, if you were to put in Epsom then it comes up with 9 state secondary schools, 5 independent schools and one state special school (for those not able to access mainstream education) within a three mile radius. (That is roughly Sutton, Chessington, Leatherhead, Banstead).

The site contains lots of information about each school population, for example, number of entries in each subject at GCSE (year 11) and A Level, number and performance of disadvantaged pupils, pupils with English as an additional language, split between girls and boys, how many pupils joined the school after the start of year 10 etc.

Then things like how many pupils there are that have SEN support or a Health & Care Plan. Total number of teachers and Teaching Assistants.

But I would say that the most important figures to look at are the Attainment 8 score and the Progress 8 score. Especially when these figures are split out by prior attainment.

Attainment 8 is a measure of pupils average academic performance across eight subjects. So, the higher the score for a school the better results the pupils are achieving. The average figure was 46.3

Progress 8 is a measure of pupil progress between the ages of 11 and 16, a sort of "value added" measure of how much the pupils at that school have progressed while they've been there.

If a school has a score of zero then its pupils have made average progress. If the score is above zero then the pupils have made more progress than average.

Around half of schools score between -0.3 and +0.3. The highest is +2.55 and the lowest is -0.8 for an entire school.

These scores are then further broken down by prior attainment. So it looks separately at those pupils with high, medium and low prior attainment at their previous primary school.
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Just looking at the headline figure can give you a good start. For example, looking at the nine schools in and around Epsom it turns out that two of the three best schools are girls schools (Rosebury in Epsom and Nonsuch in Sutton) so that leaves them out for your DSs.

Up with them though is St Andrews Catholic School in Leatherhead with an Attainment 8 Score of 64.3 and a Progress 8 Score of +1.2.

If you break those scores down you see that the Progress 8 score is good for all three types of prior attainers (what this means is that regardless of whether the pupil was the brightest or not, all of them progressed well). The only are where they fall down is in science subjects for low prior attainers.

There are not many disadvantaged pupils at the school, 6% compared with 27% nationally and fewer pupils with SEN support (7% compared to 13% nationally).

The Glyn School is a boys school in Epsom and they also have good scores as well but not quite up to the standard of the three mentioned above.
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If you contrast this with some of the schools lower down on the list, for example The Beacon School in Banstead or Epsom & Ewell High School in Epsom.

The Beacon School has an Attainment 8 score of 46.4 and a Progress 8 score of -0.14. Epsom & Ewell High School has Attainment 8 score of 41.6 and Progress 8 score of -0.39.

Taking the Epsom & Ewell High School it did below average on Progress 8 overall but it was particularly bad with high prior attainers with a score -0.68

That really is quite bad indeed.

For example, you would typically expect around 85-90% of high prior attainers to get GCSE maths and English at grade 5+. In this school only 65% of high prior attainers managed this.(along with 32% of middle and 2% of low prior attainers).

Disadvantaged pupils did particularly poorly with a Progress 8 score of -0.88. However, it was the 24% of pupils with English as an additional language (EAL) that did well in the school and actually outperformed compared to others.

Attainment 8 score for EAL pupils was 47.7, for others it was 40.1. For EAL pupils 46% got English & maths at grade 5+. For others it was just 29%.
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It was also interesting looking at how many pupils transferred in after the start of year 10. At quite a few schools around 10 or 15 pupils had transferred in during this period. But at the best performing schools it was one pupil at most. People are not leaving these high performing schools in year 10 or 11 unless they have to.

Given Surrey have said they have no spaces in Y9, Y10 or Y11, it's more likely to be a case of taking what is available rather than worrying about what the Progress 8 is.

Occasional places will come up because people move, but unlikely in highly desirable schools.

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/surrey-runs-out-of-state-school-places-for-private-pupils-as-vat-raid-bites/?amp

From that news article: "Clare Curran, a Surrey County Council cabinet member, acknowledged the challenge but maintained that the council would monitor the situation and consider expanding certain state schools if the need arose. She also noted that some schools have not filled all the places they could theoretically offer."

Rolls below year 6 in Surrey are falling through the floor - our village infants which was over-subscribed two years ago now has just has 17 in reception. This will obviously permeate upwards. The concern is not too many children, but too few to actually be able to keep schools open. A flood of children from the independent sector, if it happens at all, will likely come as a relief for many schools which would otherwise have been looking at reducing their PAN and laying off staff.

Not much help for the OP who wants Y11 and Y9.

Although op is talking about year 9 in September, so might be best to apply for year 8 once they have proof of address.

As the councillor quoted says, if the need arises the council can tell secondary schools to expand years if required. It's not like primary schools where there is a hard and fast limit of 30 per class. Our school managed to make space for the influx of Ukrainian and Hong Kong secondary school pupils just fine.

If you move in March 25, get them both into school March / April 25. Absolutely definitely the oldest as it will reduce the amount of a 2-year GCSE course missed.
And if you can move earlier, do it. It's about the worst time to move your oldest.