Do you feel you are *entitled* to the "best" school for your children?

[UnquietDad]

If so, why?

and just a few other questions/points.

Define "best"

and

Does this apply also to people up the road?

and

Does this apply also to people in different social classes?

i.e if you're entitled to the "best" school why isn't everyone else?

Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country?
Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?
Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?

(It's a quiet Saturday... Walks away whistling, hands in pockets... Gas Mark 6, set to simmer. I'll be back...)

Hmmm not getting drawn into any name calling or disagreements but I do feel every child has the right to an education which suits them.
I do feel entitled to the best education for my child and for everyone elses. I am lucky in that my DC will be going to either the local private school, the local grammar school or one of 2 fantastic local comps.

Yes every parent wants their child to be healthy, happy and a DR or a Lawyer but those careers won't suit every child.
I think that there should be no shame in acknowledging that some children are the consultants and hedge fund managers of tomorrow and some are the hairdressers and bricklayers. I couldn't build a house or cut hair so I need these people.
I do think that there should be smaller schools, perhaps a middle and upper school system might work, from say 11-14 all children go to a middle school which is comprehensive with streams and more reminscent of primary school then at 14, when lets face it you have a rough idea of whether a cild is academic of vocational they go to upper school which is more reminiscent of the old grammar/secondary modern idea?

Yup. My kids are entitled to the very best of everything, and that includes schools. - Doesn't every parent feel their children deserve the best?

The 'best' school for my children is the one that best meets their needs, where the staff are good and supportive and the other kids are kind and nice and my children are happy.

Yes, it applies to the people up the road, it applies to everyone - however, would I ever say "no, you have my kids places in this school, I think your children matter more than mine. I'll go somewhere else." HAHAHAHAHA No, I'd fight them for it! other people are entitled to the same and that's for the government etc to ensure, but they are entitled to nothing from me personally at the expense of my children.

Yes, it applies to all social classes.

I can't comment on middle class attitudes, because I have no knowledge or understanding of what they are supposed to be.

"Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?"(and then the playing the system bit) - Well yes, of course. If you have good and bad - who wants the worst of anything ?? How stupid would you have to be to not try to get the best for your children? Don't blame parents for trying to do the best for their kids, blame the system for making it so they have to! And to change the system, they first have to accept less for their children. Who is going to say well, in the interests of the long term greater good, I am happy to sacrifice my childrens best interests. They'll do less well, but society will benefit. I wouldn't feed someone else's child and leave mine hungry..I wouldn't do anything for someone elses child at the expense of mine.

League tables, uniform..probably, to some. They'll always be around no matter what. If all schools were equal, they'd find something else to try to elevate themselves, because that's a problem they have.

We all put our own children first. I remember a meeting with some lea woman about 1:1 funding for my son. She was telling me about the financing and she began to tell me that other children needed support and that was why they had to make certain choices and decisions. I said "Excuse me but I don't give a stuff about other people's children. That's your problem, not mine. My children's needs must be met. I am never going to say oh leave my kids unsupported, put the money somewhere else, Someone elses child comes first..Someone elses child will NEVER come first. They can have what's left after MY kids have everything they need."
And I will never EVER apologise for having that attitude.

Sorry H, I don't believe my children deserve the best in the way you've just described.
For example I would advocate sharing of resources in the funding issue you've mentioned, and I would try to find an alternative way of giving my child what they needed. I couldn't take the best and another child only have some if there was any left.

I'm not sure that teaching children that approach is the best for them, though it is totally instinctive and natural. Lots of research has shown that altruistic behaviour is actually what provides greater happiness, so teaching one's children to grab the 'best' may not be the best for their ultimate contenetment with life...

Hecate - exactly it, and just what I expected most people on here to say.

It's the one area where socialism totally falls down. When it comes to school places, everyone is out for themselves, and themselves only.

I think socialism falls down in many more areas than education UQD.

What about healthcare, housing and just about everything else that people need.

I don't have a vendetta about private schools or indeed any other kind of school. I've made clear on numerous occasions that I think the concept of "choice" is flawed, and that to tell someone that you "could go private if you really wanted to" is fundamentally misguided. After all, private schools work on the basis that not everyone is going to be able to use them. It's part of the appeal, just like Waitrose.

I just think it's a shame that education is viewed as a commodity in this way - and that people who care enough to make actual proactive decisions about their children's education ultimately have their ability to carry their principles through defined by their ability to pay vast amounts of money to do so.

Got to disagree with you Red, love I will never accept my children's needs not being met because someone thinks I should believe that someone else's child should come first. I think the problem with this whole discussion is the word 'best'. It is the wrong word I think. I fight for my kids needs to be met in their entirety. I wouldn't put someone else's needs above my childrens. I wouldn't, for example, agree for my children to go without speech therapy because the therapist wants to work with someone else. I fight for everything my kids need. I wouldn't give anything that would mean my children were disadvantaged. that may be selfish, but I certainly wouldn't sit back with a happy glow if I was looking at my mute children still in nappies and biting themselves and think to myself, I shared the resources, some other child has really benefited here, I feel good about myself.

I don't mean that to read as agressive, Red . I hope it doesn't come across so, I'm not trying to argue here! I'm just trying to get across how strongly I feel. But maybe that's because I've had years and years of fighting to get my kids anything!

The problem with resource-sharing is that it only starts to work if everyone does it, and does it equally selflessly.

Agree with RedAdmiral - not all parents act in the way Hecate describes.

UQD, are you going to write a book about this by any chance?

redadmiral... You doubt my motives?!

I'm not, actually - well, not just yet, anyway. I've not started this thread just to harvest quotes and give them made-up names, if that's what you mean...

Hi H. It doesn't come across as aggressive at all.

I like a good debate though, sooo, didn't you say that other people's children could ahve what's left after your children have what they need? That's not quite what you said in your second post.

No UQD. It is your fave subject though, and as such is probably a great starter for a book.

UQD there is a play out at the moment called 'Happy Now' which deals with a lot of middle class parenting concerns, including the school issue really well and cleverly. I believe you are not in London - don't know if you can see the script anywhere....

Yes, it's what I said in my first post and what I thought the second post was saying too. Other people's children can have what's left after my children have what they need.

I guess it is what you understand by 'what they need' and what I mean by 'what they need'. To me, it's all the therapies, interventions and help and support they need. All the funding, the special teachers, the 1:1, the physical aids they need. everything they need to cope, to function, to learn.

I've reread my 2 posts and to me, they are saying the same thing - I will always put what my kids need, first.

And the problem with your approach Hecate is that no doubt a lot of other people feel exactly the same about their own kids. They wouldnt give a stuff about yours, as long as theirs get what they need.
We do not have, and never will have, unlimited resources. What's in the pot has to be divided up - and it only works if it's done fairness and equality.

I do not feel 'entitled' to anything.

I think people, as far as possible, should send their children to a local school so that they have local friends and do not have to be driven everywhere.

Happy Now? was written by Lucinda Coxon and is published by either Nick Hern or Faber Drama.

Agree with those posters who say that every child should have the best education to genuinely meet their needs.

Something that bothers me about disbanding the grammar system in general is how the provision of minority, academic subjects in the state sector would fare. Languages ancient and modern are already being squeezed and underresourced, even when children likely to benefit from them and do well are concentrated in one place.

I think in real terms it would mean the end of any child in the state sector having access to subjects such as Russian, Latin, Greek etc

And then those children would not be best served...and they have a right to a good education that suits them too.

I think the way forward for the state sector in the UK is to put more money into making secondary education small and collegiate - small schools, smaller class sizes, sharing a "campus" so that resources such as sports fields, theatres and laboratories can be shared. Interesting work in the States suggests that children of all abilities benefit hugely, and the small schools mean that the teachers and support staff can spot children in need of mentoring/coaching much more easily. I saw an inspirational documentary on this on C4 a while ago and it is being trialled in Bristol also.

What was the name of that book, where a mother sat her daughter's entrance exam???? I have read it, but WHat was it called and who was it by?

Actually this was all thrashed out in that book.......

Somebody O'Farrell.

I'm really sorry to hear about your children H.

I think that when it comes to real 'needs' - food, hunger, escaping from danger, and protecting children in need - it is harder to think about morals and ethics. We are basically animals and are hard-wired to protect our children. I'm not religious and don't see anything wrong with that.

For most people though, going to the best school is not a 'need', and I don't think that your argument necessarily applies to the OP. Feel free to disagree.

I'm 100% sure everyone feels the same Alfiesbabe. I wouldn't expect any other parent to put my kids needs above their own kids needs, just like I wouldn't expect anyone to think I'd put their kids needs above mine. Fighting for it doesn't always mean I get it btw (sadly) just that I fight for it and argue for it and do my best to make sure I get everything possible - and everyone else is out there doing the same. The fairness doesn't come from me (or other parents) sitting back and saying "no you have it" "no, no, you have it""no, I've already had some, you have the rest" - it comes from the decision makers listening to everyone and making their decision. They split it how they see fit. I'm still going to argue my case though and try to make them see that my kids need it more and I'm still going to believe that my kids needs should be met first! (like everyone else believes about their kids!)

We never will have unlimited resources, that's true. And it's awful. But we're never going to change that by accepting less than we need so that it can be shared with others. We'll all get more by shouting for it! They will pay out as little as they can! And I know the done thing on Mumsnet is to say that we should share nicely and be socially responsible and etc etc, and hats off to you if you feel that. I don't think I'm a horrible person, indeed many people on here will be able to name at least one occasion when I've been quite nice but I tell you something, when it comes to my kids, I am selfish. Maybe I'm exceptionally selfish, more so than others, I don't know. Perhaps that's awful of me, I don't think so, but I respect your right to think so I have to fight for my kids because, frankly, nobody else ever has or ever will give a flying fuck.

But if everybody shouts, you can't hear anything!
I think you are very honest about your approach right now, but it hasn't always been such a catfight and I hop once again it will be possible to consider the greater good.
I think one of the worst aspects of this me first attitude is parents buying up properties in an area just for a school and denying the local council estate kids, for eg, access

Oh, don't be sorry, Red - my kids are fab and doing great! you know, perhaps my view of school and what I understand by getting the best is different, based on my experience. Am I whittering on about something totally different and irrelevant to the thread then? So, just out of interest, what do others mean by 'the best'? (I actually feel a bit stupid if I've totally misunderstood the discussion!)