All education should be streamed

[ladykale]

If training young footballers seriously, we would never suggest that they continue to play past primary school age with players of all abilities. It OBVIOUSLY would mean that either worse players would not get to play competitively and best players would not be stretched.

Why don't we take a similar approach to education?? One of my issues with the U.K. education system is it rarely holds children back even one year despite them not passing basic requirements for a year and it is not commonplace to move children ahead one year.

I think there should be the ability to hold children back for max 1 year and move kids forward by max 1 year so that classes are more indicative of ability, and streaming of abilities across all subjects year to year (to allow movement between years).

Everything feels like it is amount the lowest common denominator (particularly in state schools!) which holds back brighter children imo.

This would be much better than having a separate grammar system which separates kids out so young and does not allow for late bloomers

@Hercisback1

haha I'm a MN user, not trying to give anyone teaching advice, simply an idea of what worked well in my own school years ago, but does not seem to be prevalent in lots of schools now.

In my school we had "fast stream" which was essential top set for maths, English and languages so we referring to it back then as "which stream you were in" hence my use of the term "streaming".

Baffled by my child's own school where they speak of children of such vastly different abilities all being in the same class. Still not clear on how that serves anyone very well...

Yr 7 might not be appropriate academically. But Primary is the wrong place socially. They need to be with children of a similar age, not in a school designed for 4-11yos.

Because school isn't a social club and is meant to actually educate children to a specific standard...

Also Y6 is a great example because most people are separated from their friends in Y7 as most go to different schools.

Isn't bizarre that the U.K. education system just lets kids continue to struggle and herds them through years with no regard to if they are actually understanding the minimum required for that year - nor even suggesting that bar needs to be v high

@TickingAlongNicely fair enough, understand your view point but I don't think being one year above or below makes a huge difference socially.

Particularly when there could be almost a year difference between August and September born babies anyway.

We are so rigid about age when it comes to education, when focus should be how can we achieve the best outcome for each individual child (whether academically gifted in all subjects, only some or gifted in more vocational stuff.

Same way I think there needs to be more vocational programs from age 15 so even people who are less academic can flourish and can excel in something that they could be hugely successful in.

Streaming isn't the solution.

Tracking is better. Many American high schools offer courses at various levels, and the idea of progressing through school with same age peers toward a final exam would be considered strange. Tracking is based on aptitude testing done before students start high school. The track you're on isn't set in stone - if you want to change and show ability, you'll be able to chop and change. Tracking is also related to style or preference in learning - self starters vs kids who need a lot of teacher input.

Especially in maths, kids do classes with students working at their level. A 14 hear old who has advanced to calculus could sit in class with students of any age from 14 to 18.

Large schools with huge numbers of staff on the payroll make it possible to offer subjects at a lot of levels, from remedial to university level, and even niche topics, for instance, in English lit courses that appeal to and engage different groups - War and Literature, or The Victorian Novel, or Literature and the African American Experience, or Spoken Word Poetry, or Journalism, for example.

Students are not all progressing to the same set of final exams either. Instead students can do courses that suit their aptitude, interests, and ambition - automotive tech, cosmetology, business lab, graphic design, and more, alongside required coursework in core subjects (English, maths, science, MFL, art, humanities) that can be taken at a level best suited to aptitude. Students aiming for university can taken honours/ higher level courses, and AP level courses. These courses offer final exams administered by outside bodies, operating on a national level. Students are continuously assessed in school in all subjects, every year, and the assessment is reflected in the grade point average.

@ladykale are you saying that PE, Art and Drama are "social activities"
That's odd.... I thought they were part of the National Curriculum 🤔

In the U.K. most secondary schools will have about between 5 and 10 children a year who cannot read.

Phonics is the method used to teach reading in the UK but even the people most in favour of it admit that phonics does not work for all children.

(The research, which is quite highly contested, suggests that phonics works for many children but not all. educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/phonics)

Children who are not able to learn to read using phonics (the most obvious two categories are deaf children and blind children but there are plenty of others) are usually given specialist teaching focusing on alternative approaches.

It is NOT appropriate to keep children who cannot read back in primary school on the presumption that an approach that failed the first time will succeed if they are simply made to redo the year/teaching

It is very clear you don't have much experience in education and are very unaware of the different disabilities that can impact children learning to read. The solution to a deaf child not being able to read because a teacher tried to use phonics is not more phonics.

Who knew suggesting that a 10 or 11 year old who can't read in Y6 MAY benefit from being held back max 1 year would be controversial... only in the U.K. education system haha!

I'm talking about non-SEN children.

There are many who would benefit from repeating a year but this is unheard of in the U.K. in many cases and there is a strange associated stigma for some reason too

This sounds ideal! I wonder if this is being considered in a U.K. context

@ladykale why would a "non SEN" child not be able to read by Year 6?
If they can't read then they have a special educational need. Or "SEN".

Our primary school is a three form entry and they are in sets for Maths and English and in form groups for the rest. Seems to work well.

@mathanxiety how do things like sport work in US schools, and other activities which often have an age restriction?

One of the issues that the UK has is if you are educated out of your year group you might miss out on sport because the PE lessons will be scheduled at different times for different year groups. Also, does the social aspect of being educated with people a couple of years older or younger than you cause any issues?

Sometimes I think we should stream by behaviour and attitude to learning. Have smaller class sizes in the 'bottom' stream and give them SEMH/ challenging behaviour specialist teachers who choose to be there and can really get the best out of those kids.

Have you thought of the logistics of this? In a secondary school Yr7 might have maths when Yr8 have English. How could a gifted Yr7 student attend Yr8 maths classes as the lessons don't occur at the same time? This idea is simply chaos!!

Why do you think dropping back a year would help with dyslexia??

One of the reasons I’m really not very keen on my catchment secondary school is that they only set for maths. Yes bright kids do well will be trotted out but that is often in spite of the set-up rather than because they benefit from it.

I remember in my old comp being sat for Spanish gcse with a girl who went on to get a g. I got an A* so perhaps that would prove the ‘bright kids do well anyway’ but the jump to a-level was massive and I wasn’t pushed in that gcse class to be the best I could be. I was taught enough to get the top grade but that often isn’t really good enough if you want to go for further study. It goes back to the point another poster made about mediocrity- surely you want a system where people are supported to do the best that they can do, not one that becomes a tick box re law of averages.

I would have thought it's much easier to teach kids in sets than wide range of abilities. DS2 has moved to grammar school and is much happier. Meanwhile ds1 is in mixed ability and half the time frustrated 🥴

There are lots more vocational courses from 15. Btecs and other courses. Many students go to 6th form colleges to do them.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft yes colleges and UTC's are good for vocational courses.
Teens can start those at 14.

With very deep respect, OP, more than one poster has provided you with links to Education Endowment Foundation research on the matter. I appreciate that you had a specific experience in your own schooldays but if you want to have a discussion about the matter, it would be respectful to the professionals here if you were to familiarise yourself with at least some of the evidence on the issue first.

I'm not a teacher but have worked in the environment and have the deepest respect for the evidence based approach now being taken by the professionals in school. They don't just rock up and make it up.

I think it disadvantages middle lower ability.
DD was in a non-streamed primary initially and couldn’t keep up. She’s now set for everything and learning much better as the work is ata better par for her level of comprehension.

DS left primary at greater depth in Maths and Reading Comprehension, a pass in SPAG and two years behind in writing as he has Dyslexia and Dyspraxia. Where would you stream him? Being held back a year would have been crushing to his self esteem and also wouldn't have helped - if you don't understand something the first time simply repeating the same thing in the same way again is highly unlikely to help, especially if you are very bright you just have a learning difference.

Moving a year ahead/behind isn't the answer. Better funding for schools and smaller classes sizes is the answer. It's very hard for kids to learn anything in a class of 34 when the roof is leaking and it's either roasting or freezing because the heating doesn't work. Another school I worked at had a classroom roof collapse, fortunately at the weekend so no-one was hurt. In lots of places things clearly aren't a lot better now: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0e1zlpxvw7o

So do you really think a child of 8 who is working at a Yr R level in most areas, should still be in yr R?
How long should they stay there?

That's what we've got - a very small set (separate English and Maths sets) of lower attainers who are taught by the SEN team in KS3 and subject specialists in KS4. (Also applies to Science in KS4.)