Thread 2: VAT on school Fees- High court challenge

[EHCPerhaps]

Following on from thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5160565-vat-on-school-fees-high-court-challenge

Background to legal challenge (not yet a case):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13824931/amp/Single-mother-autistic-child-launches-High-Court-challenge-Labours-private-schools-VAT-raid-claiming-violates-daughters-right-education.html

Sorry to begin a new thread, OP, but your thread filled up very quickly!

I spoke a couple of days ago to a senior staff member of one of our local prep schools, who recently had their open day. Numbers registered to attend were down one-third from previous years. Numbers who actually attended were halved. They reckon their own school will survive but at least 3 of the local preps will go bust.

@Marchesman ,

‘We also use the Longitudinal Study of Young People in England data to check the validity of our assumption that private school pupils belong at the top of the SES distribution. In fact, this analysis suggests that only around 35% of private school pupils belong in the top SES quintile (a further 30% are in the second SES quintile, and a further 25% are in the middle SES quintile)." Chowdry. J. R. Statist. Soc. A (2013) 176, Part 2, pp. 431–457’

2013 is over a decade ago and a link would be really useful, as I am highly sceptical.

According to Green there has been no significant change over time.

www.jstor.org/stable/23355199

Regarding @Newbutoldfather's posts, there are quite a few teachers in that position especially in Maths, Economics, Politics, Psychology, Sociology, STEM, Classics and in particular types of school.

On a good day there's definitely still job satisfaction in teaching!

@Mrsbabbecho private school is of course not designed to limit educational choice to those who can afford it.

But it makes educational choice available to only those who can afford it.

It is designed to create an elite and have those children educated in isolation. You may talk about rigorous expectations etc but the defining factor in your choice is your ability to pay. It's designed (via price) to keep the others out.

There might be wider educational choice for everyone if private school parents hadn't removed themselves.

I can guarantee that if private school fees were halved tomorrow you would be up in arms over who might be let in.

Bit of a backtrack there but I’ll allow it given its you. Yes PS offer additional educational choice for those who can afford it and pass the entrance exams. A range of differing options at differing prices that may specialise in different things I.e. music, drama, sports and that parents could opt for at different times in a child’s learning I.e. GCSEs, A levels or prep if the full PS education cost is financially prohibitive and state meets their needs for part of their education.
20% increase reduces these options for everyone. In supporting this policy, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face just because others will have more options than you. You are reducing the educational options for yours and other children simply out of spite.
I would be delighted if PS fees halved overnight; the sector would grow, the state school budget per head would increase as more parents selected education more suited to their children and the best bit is that there would be more options available if I didn’t like who had been let in my children’s current school.

This tells me that you know very little about private school parents and have bought into stereotypes that say rather more about you than anyone else.

Why would people be up in arms about 'who might be let in'?

Plenty of PS parents have children in state for part of their education, or one in state and one in private.

You are just as likely to find your child sat next to child of premier division footballer as you are Rees-Mogg minor... or (shock horror) my cleaner's DC.

Top sets in top state schools are (in my experience) rather less diverse socio-economically than a lot of private schools.

Private schools aren't designed to 'keep people out' - they're designed to offer a particular type of education. That comes with a price tag.

I can guarantee that if private school fees were halved tomorrow you would be up in arms over who might be let in.

This is a really extraordinary comment.

There would probably be more people like me!

Yes. And I would support that in a heartbeat.

Thank you, I appreciate you saying that.

I can guarantee that if private school fees were halved tomorrow you would be up in arms over who might be let in.

remotecontrolowls why would mrsbabbecho be up in arms? What an odd comment.

Perhaps we should have a voucher system where people can either use their £7,500 for a normal state school or use it to contribute towards paying for a private school. Less people would use the fully funded state schools and this would put less pressure on the system. There might also be more choice in the market. There might be more private schools that just offer smaller classes that don't cost much more than £7,500 per student.
I understand in principle, this means that not everyone has equal access to education but they don't really have equal access anyway. The Sutton Trust finds that those from low socioeconomic backgrounds are much more likely to attend a bad school. We don't have equality even in the comprehensive system. Instead we have a postcode lottery.
Also if parents are paying more directly for their children's education directly-say £7,500 +£2,500 of their own money then they may feel more empowered.
The old assisted place could also be brought back to enable high-ability students from low socioeconomic backgrounds to be given help/funding to go to a private school.

Pretty much the Irish system.

The Sutton Trust finds that those from low socioeconomic backgrounds are much more likely to attend a bad school.

Can I whisper this: they make this school bad? any school where majority of kids have uneducated parents who are unable or unwilling to support their children will struggle? and opposite is true - school were most parents are educated and engaged will thrive?

I just found this article on voucher systems

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/9789264175006-7-en.pdf?expires=1728246563&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=A9EFE5A9E94C05D1C9A37C2381E95B1A

Chile, Estonia, Poland, Portugal and Spain are regarded as universal voucher systems.

Voucher system would make a lot of sense but can you imagine the outcry here in the UK? "Poor sponsoring posho kids!"

Vouchers have been proposed a few times in the UK. I think most plans of that kind in the UK would fail due to the property market more than anything.

@nearlylovemyusername I agree a voucher system might lead to an outcry. However, it wouldn't be justified on the basis that the poor are sponsoring private schools as everyone would get the same £7,500 (which is paid for out of everyone's taxes). People who desperately want smaller classes for their children due to SEN, bullying etc. could probably afford to top this up to send their children to cheaper private schools offering smaller classes but not the big facilities. I have pulled this out of a hat, but I reckon 50% of people could probably afford to top up if it is only £2,500 extra per year especially if they don't have to pay for houses in an expensive catchment area.

@Phineyj House prices would be affected but some places would go up in price and some would go down. Are there really people vetoing a voucher system based on property prices alone?

I don’t know if a voucher system would solve the issues. For DC with SEN, the Spanish and Polish systems come with their own problems and for many aren’t any better than the English SEN system. I don’t know much about SEN provision in other countries who have voucher system.

@EndlessLight There are private schools that specialise in SEN in England already that are at the cheaper end of private schools. If there was a voucher system, more parents could choose this option for their SEN child as it would be closer in affordability.

@Runemum I know there are some independent SS with fees that aren’t expensive (relatively speaking) - I posted not all independent SS are £80k+ on the first page of this thread in response to a post made by the OP at the end of thread 1. However, it depends entirely on the type of SEN and needs of the child. Many, many are upwards of £80k/100k or even more. A voucher system wouldn’t touch the sides of that type of provision so I don’t see how it would solve the issues.

It would also open other questions.

What about those who EHE, would they get the equivalent of the voucher? Whilst some LAs will sometimes provide PBs to some of those EHE, they don’t have to and not all do. Where they do, the value is often minuscule compared to the needs they are providing for. Some LAs provide a limited amount of funding for public exams, but many do not.

And what about those with EOTAS/EOTIS, who so often seem to miss out? For example, only relatively recently after a campaign by one particular woman, have the rules around FSM changed. The equivalent funding to pupil premium also isn’t given to the vast majority of those with EOTAS/EOTIS.

@Runemum - since when has "everyone getting the same which is paid for out of everyone's taxes" stopped outcry about "the poor subsidising the rich"??

It's claimed as unfair if "the rich" get any benefit at all from the taxes they pay. See child benefit, free nursery hours, tax-free childcare and WFA.

None of those are available universally any more, even though that creates harmful cliff edges. It's not politically acceptable.

@EndlessLight I had to look up a lot of the terms you used in your previous post.
I think by EHE-you mean homeschooled children. In a voucher system, I would have thought that every child would get a £7500 which could only be used for educational purposes-a bit like the tax-free childcare scheme.

I looked up that EOTAS stands for "Education Otherwise Than at School, which is usually provided when a child is unable to access suitable education in a mainstream or special school due to:
Social, emotional, or behavioural issues
Medical issues
Suspension or expulsion from school
Disengagement from school

It costs more to send children to behavioural units or to be educated in a hospital and so these children would be funded separately. They cost more than £7,500 a year and would continue to cost more. They government would have to pay the extra cost.

The voucher system I was suggesting was for children who attend normal schools including children who have lower level SEN. Schools that currently cost the government £7,500 per child per year.
My friend's sister works at a school, where many of the children have SEN but not at the level of need, which costs £80K a year. The school is about £14K a year. These children could attend a normal school but their needs probably wouldn't be met.

And the anger when any poster on over 100k suggests they might pay into their pension to reduce it to 100k and qualify for the 30 hrs free childcare. I've seen that debate play out here too!