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Thread 2: VAT on school Fees- High court challenge

1000 replies

EHCPerhaps · 10/09/2024 11:40

Following on from thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5160565-vat-on-school-fees-high-court-challenge

Background to legal challenge (not yet a case):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13824931/amp/Single-mother-autistic-child-launches-High-Court-challenge-Labours-private-schools-VAT-raid-claiming-violates-daughters-right-education.html

Sorry to begin a new thread, OP, but your thread filled up very quickly!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
strawberrybubblegum · 02/10/2024 05:08

DadJoke · 01/10/2024 15:08

It's an extremely neat wealth tax, as I've posted previously, almost entirely confined to the top 5% and concentrated in the top 1%.

It's nothing like the WFA withdrawal, which is a badly targeted unpopular mess.

And it's nice to see some state educated ministers, when the previous cabinet was 60% public-school educated.

No one who isn't already voting Tory is going to change their vote on this issue.

It's nothing like the WFA withdrawal, which is a badly targeted unpopular mess.

Whether a policy is popular has very little to do with whether it's good policy.

A competent government would analyse the consequences of a policy before implementating it, instead of relying on whether they or their voters like it.

Why are you saying that the WFA withdrawal isn't 'targetted'? Of course it's targetted: in fact, it's much more accurately based on income. The reason it's a bad policy is that the threshold for the target is too low and so for a significant number of edge cases, the negative consequences of the policy are unacceptably high. Also, for a smaller number of people there's a barrier to becoming exempt (pension credits) which they were eligible for but hadn't gone through the process for. And quick introduction put pressure on that.

Labour didn't do the analysis. They relied on how much they liked the policy. And wrongly assumed it would also be popular with their voters.

It is terrible government - and lazy thinking - to rely on popularity over analysis when deciding policy.

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 06:04

Marchesman · 01/10/2024 23:44

@Another76543

Another problem is that the esteemed professor and his mates make a living producing "research" that typically starts off with a falsehood, and therefore it would be foolish to take any notice of their recommendations. In this case, we have:

"The greatest schooling inequality by a very long distance lies in the resources gap between the private (fee-paying) and state sectors. With access limited by ability to pay, there exists a stark socio-economic segmentation of pupils between the sectors, yielding in effect a two-tier system... I argue – on the basis of both common sense and substantive evidence from recent literature on educational production functions – that the prime factor behind their effects on educational performance is likely to be the huge resource gap between the sectors."

It sounds OK but it doesn't bear scrutiny. He is referring to a less than twofold difference in resources, but on some outcomes (which is arguably a more worthwhile metric) the top quintile of state schools and the bottom vary by a multiple that is more than ten times larger.

Furthermore, if 85% of the wealthiest 5% (and half of the top 1%) send their children to state schools, It is not credible that they have chosen the lower tier of a "two-tier" system; and indeed they have not - outcomes from the state schools that they use are the same as from private schools, despite having half the resources.

So our professor started off with a set of recommendations, worked backwards to provide a rationale for them, and came up short - because all state schools are not the same, contrary to this and other academics' putative "two-tier system" on which pretty much all of this is based.

I'm sure the 'esteemed professor and his mates' are aware of that, having actually done their research.

This is how contextual offers work at the moment, Bristol for example. State schools are weighted according to postcode and their overall grades. They accept that an A* in a low performing school is much harder to achieve than in a private, grammar or top state school.

They also take into consideration adverse childhood experiences, time in care, illness etc.

This seems fair.

The flaw in this debate is that many private school parents don't care about educational equality. Why would they when they're at the top of the pile?

I include myself and my own child in this.

I have friends with children at boarding school who are furious their child didn't get an offer from Oxford because 'they want more state school kids'

I'd be furious too if I'd spent £200k+ to give my child a disadvantage. Except of course she's not disadvantaged at all and will certainly never struggle for money or connections.

The last government didn't care about it either.

But most people believe that society as a whole is better if everyone is given a decent chance, and everyone has a chance to succeed despite their environment as well as because of it.

The government doesn't really have to persuade the people at the top to be able to do that.

"“To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.” and all that.

As for people leaving the country, maybe everyone has had enough of that too. The last government has driven the country off a cliff in desperate pursuit of the super wealthy. Brexit being an absolute act of vandalism. Bankers caused a world financial crisis which austerity paid for. Maybe voters have decided that the price of keeping these fragile high earners is too high.

JK Rowling's view on this is sound, although I doubt many people feel the same.

"I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain’s; to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not free-floating ex-pats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles.

A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, threadbare though it had become under John Major’s Government, was there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is my notion of patriotism. On the available evidence, I suspect that it is Lord Ashcroft’s idea of being a mug."

Araminta1003 · 02/10/2024 07:10

I am almost 100 per cent confident that JK Rowling would agree that a parent like Quinn with a child with SEND who has been failed by the state system should not have to pay VAT on school fees!
That is what this claim is about and that is also what this thread is about. Despite the usual suspects trying to derail it. It is, in particular offensive, when they state they are in the top 1 per cent and are expecting parents like Quinn to pay towards their DCs in state schools, who in some cases, are both intelligent, with supportive parents, in good state schools and do NOT have SEND.

Barbadossunset · 02/10/2024 07:34

I have friends with children at boarding school who are furious their child didn't get an offer from Oxford because 'they want more state school kids.

@remotecontrolowls given your views on private education, conversation with these friends must get a little awkward when the subject of schools comes up. However I’m sure you make your views quite clear.

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 07:53

Barbadossunset · 02/10/2024 07:34

I have friends with children at boarding school who are furious their child didn't get an offer from Oxford because 'they want more state school kids.

@remotecontrolowls given your views on private education, conversation with these friends must get a little awkward when the subject of schools comes up. However I’m sure you make your views quite clear.

We are good friends. She is kind and a good person.

She does know my views and we don't talk about it much.

Some of us are capable of having relationships with people who aren't exactly like us.

Mrsbabbecho · 02/10/2024 08:07

XelaM · 01/10/2024 22:28

Yep, that's me. I am looking for jobs abroad. I am absolutely fed up of the UK and am lucky enough to have a European passport and skills that can be used elsewhere. I am also sending my daughter to university in Europe where it's free. I am no longer willing for my already huge taxes to support useless government spending.

It’s a shame decent people are feeling like this, it’s obvious we need more net tax payers and less takers. On the plus side it’s just a blip, the education tax won’t be implemented and the next government will strengthen anti discrimination laws around university applications.

EasternStandard · 02/10/2024 08:09

goodluckbinbin · 02/10/2024 00:49

Bye then! I am a European passport holding ( and UK) high earner. I’ll stay here, pay my taxes, continue sending my kids to state schools and be grateful that universities an option for them, wherever they go.
You do you. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

I don’t get the arse door responses. I know the emotion overrides the rational but we do actually need people here paying taxes not prompted into behaviour change through poor policy

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 08:16

We do, but it's hard when high rate tax payers demand so much in return.

I would rather a few did go to Dubai if that meant a fairer tax system (all tax, not just income) and more opportunities for everyone else. Like trying to please the star striker at the expense of the team.

And the very wealthy avoid tax anyway.

It also makes these debates difficult to grasp when we move from 'won't someone think of the poor children with SEN' to 'fuck it I'm off to Dubai'

strawberrybubblegum · 02/10/2024 08:22

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 08:16

We do, but it's hard when high rate tax payers demand so much in return.

I would rather a few did go to Dubai if that meant a fairer tax system (all tax, not just income) and more opportunities for everyone else. Like trying to please the star striker at the expense of the team.

And the very wealthy avoid tax anyway.

It also makes these debates difficult to grasp when we move from 'won't someone think of the poor children with SEN' to 'fuck it I'm off to Dubai'

when high rate tax payers demand so much in return

What the fuck do we demand in return???!!!???

We're already paying tens of thousands of tax.

Not taking up the state services we're entitled to.

Really all we're asking in return is not to have malicious taxes levied against us, and not have people deliberately harming our children because we've given them 'too good' an education and you think they should be taken down a peg or two.

Fuck that.

EasternStandard · 02/10/2024 08:22

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 08:16

We do, but it's hard when high rate tax payers demand so much in return.

I would rather a few did go to Dubai if that meant a fairer tax system (all tax, not just income) and more opportunities for everyone else. Like trying to please the star striker at the expense of the team.

And the very wealthy avoid tax anyway.

It also makes these debates difficult to grasp when we move from 'won't someone think of the poor children with SEN' to 'fuck it I'm off to Dubai'

It’s all linked to the same policy so I don’t think that’s problematic

Reeves recently rowed back on non dom policy for that very reason, people were opting out

Labour didn’t think it through and I don’t think they are with VAT policy for a variety of reasons

Araminta1003 · 02/10/2024 08:24

I assume those that go on about leaving, are self made and have no inheritance to fall back on and probably don’t even have a big pension and probably live in the South East with huge housing costs and long hours on top. Taxes should account for cost of living regionally. We Londoners cannot keep paying for the rest of the country!

Araminta1003 · 02/10/2024 08:27

Moreover, the NHS is broken in London, although we do have some good state schools, so I will admit that. And fantastic universities too and free cultural opportunities, so personally I would not leave. However, even in London SEND kids in state schools are having a horrible time as a cohort, so that is an actual fact so if some have moved to eg Kent and are paying up there for smaller class sizes etc and will now be penalised with VAT, it is unforgivable and discriminatory. Not every child can cope in the busy highly pressured secondary school model successive governments have set up. It just is not possible. And there is no denying it, we have the absence figures. The state system is failing those children! They need smaller class sizes and more individual attention.

Araminta1003 · 02/10/2024 08:29

So I am going to state the obvious AGAIN.
EHCP funding via local council for a particular private school is far too high a threshold.
Most kids with SEND need to be excepted from VAT on school fees or this policy will be an abysmal failure.

Mrsbabbecho · 02/10/2024 09:27

strawberrybubblegum · 02/10/2024 08:22

when high rate tax payers demand so much in return

What the fuck do we demand in return???!!!???

We're already paying tens of thousands of tax.

Not taking up the state services we're entitled to.

Really all we're asking in return is not to have malicious taxes levied against us, and not have people deliberately harming our children because we've given them 'too good' an education and you think they should be taken down a peg or two.

Fuck that.

You’re wasting your time arguing, their argument isn’t based in anything resembling logic but some sort of semi religious view point where to be successful and to positively contribute to the state is to blaspheme.

goodluckbinbin · 02/10/2024 09:39

Barbadossunset · 02/10/2024 07:34

I have friends with children at boarding school who are furious their child didn't get an offer from Oxford because 'they want more state school kids.

@remotecontrolowls given your views on private education, conversation with these friends must get a little awkward when the subject of schools comes up. However I’m sure you make your views quite clear.

There’s definitely a shift towards ‘excluding’ privately educated students from things that they would have been guaranteed to get - which can only be a good thing.

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 09:39

Of course we need tax payers, and of course we successful people.

But for the past 14 years that has been the sole driver of government and fuck anyone else.

Universal credit roll out, underfunded services, pay freezes while CEO pay has rocketed, PPE fraud, the list goes on.

So it's hardly surprising that people aren't falling over themselves in sympathy now.

And that's not spite or revenge, it's just facts.

goodluckbinbin · 02/10/2024 09:44

‘We're already paying tens of thousands of tax.
Not taking up the state services we're entitled to.

And? That’s your choice isn’t it? Go and use state education services. Go and use the NHS.
I have plenty of high earner friends, who have no children, private health care through work etc and I can honestly say the fact their tax money goes towards education has never been mentioned.
Perhaps because they at one point used that very education and were born on the NHS. Perhaps because they fundamentally understand how the tax system works… no-one’s giving me a reduction because I’ve never claimed benefits.
Or perhaps they realise that good state education does actually benefit the whole of the UK because it’s educating the future tax payers.

nearlylovemyusername · 02/10/2024 09:50

remotecontrolowls · 02/10/2024 08:16

We do, but it's hard when high rate tax payers demand so much in return.

I would rather a few did go to Dubai if that meant a fairer tax system (all tax, not just income) and more opportunities for everyone else. Like trying to please the star striker at the expense of the team.

And the very wealthy avoid tax anyway.

It also makes these debates difficult to grasp when we move from 'won't someone think of the poor children with SEN' to 'fuck it I'm off to Dubai'

What exactly they (us) demand in return? can you please list it?
Apart from leaving our kids as they are?

Your example about star striker is a good one - if they are the striker who makes the team win, and removing this striker will cost the team its league status, then yes, it makes all sense to please this striker. Otherwise entire team will drop level whilst maintaining equality.

Read this thread about high earners
Page 3 | To Q why many high earners still live paycheque to paycheque? | Mumsnet

Yes, some of us (many of us) are fed up and this VAT is the last straw.

KatieL5 · 02/10/2024 09:53

goodluckbinbin · 02/10/2024 09:44

‘We're already paying tens of thousands of tax.
Not taking up the state services we're entitled to.

And? That’s your choice isn’t it? Go and use state education services. Go and use the NHS.
I have plenty of high earner friends, who have no children, private health care through work etc and I can honestly say the fact their tax money goes towards education has never been mentioned.
Perhaps because they at one point used that very education and were born on the NHS. Perhaps because they fundamentally understand how the tax system works… no-one’s giving me a reduction because I’ve never claimed benefits.
Or perhaps they realise that good state education does actually benefit the whole of the UK because it’s educating the future tax payers.

Reviewing taxation at point of need of a service is a very different thing to what you describe. It is why many countries give income tax relief to parents who use private schools.

Mrsbabbecho · 02/10/2024 10:09

goodluckbinbin · 02/10/2024 09:44

‘We're already paying tens of thousands of tax.
Not taking up the state services we're entitled to.

And? That’s your choice isn’t it? Go and use state education services. Go and use the NHS.
I have plenty of high earner friends, who have no children, private health care through work etc and I can honestly say the fact their tax money goes towards education has never been mentioned.
Perhaps because they at one point used that very education and were born on the NHS. Perhaps because they fundamentally understand how the tax system works… no-one’s giving me a reduction because I’ve never claimed benefits.
Or perhaps they realise that good state education does actually benefit the whole of the UK because it’s educating the future tax payers.

Who is it you think is not happy with their tax money going towards state education that they don’t use? Everyone (I’d assume) agrees with their taxes being used to fund state education whether they use the service or not, it benefits all of society. People are not happy with paying a punitive (and quite large) additional tax BECAUSE they don’t use state education, please tell me you understand this as I feel we are actually close to some sort of agreement here. It’s so straight forward.

Im sure you’re wealthy friends might object if they had to pay an additional tax because they don’t have children using state education.

Boohoo76 · 02/10/2024 10:28

A tax for not using a state service is peverse. I wasn’t complaining about the tax I paid prior to this VAT policy but now I am questioning every fucking thing. As a higher rate tax payer I get extremely bad value for money in the UK. I am constantly having to top up my “free” medical and “low cost” dental care just so that I can keep fit and healthy and continue working to pay tax!!

As for the last Government looking after people like me, I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. I am in the top 5% earners (just as that covers people earning more than about £81k.) The last Government took our child benefit away, didn’t increase the nil rate band in line with inflation and made earning £100k so prohibitively tax inefficient that it seems pointless trying to get a higher paid job…

Shambles123 · 02/10/2024 10:51

EasternStandard · 02/10/2024 08:09

I don’t get the arse door responses. I know the emotion overrides the rational but we do actually need people here paying taxes not prompted into behaviour change through poor policy

Edited

We desperately need the money! Pragmatism > ideology for our economy.

Shambles123 · 02/10/2024 10:54

Boohoo76 · 02/10/2024 10:28

A tax for not using a state service is peverse. I wasn’t complaining about the tax I paid prior to this VAT policy but now I am questioning every fucking thing. As a higher rate tax payer I get extremely bad value for money in the UK. I am constantly having to top up my “free” medical and “low cost” dental care just so that I can keep fit and healthy and continue working to pay tax!!

As for the last Government looking after people like me, I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. I am in the top 5% earners (just as that covers people earning more than about £81k.) The last Government took our child benefit away, didn’t increase the nil rate band in line with inflation and made earning £100k so prohibitively tax inefficient that it seems pointless trying to get a higher paid job…

Edited

I have never begrudged taxes before but I agree this is also making me think. I will be using the government funds for state school pupils for my 3 kids by just over 18 months of the planned Jan 25 intro of the policy.

nearlylovemyusername · 02/10/2024 10:55

Apparently not, it's always ideology that wins.
Unless we agree that average IQ is only 100 and it's very low to fully grasp the consequences.

EasternStandard · 02/10/2024 10:56

Shambles123 · 02/10/2024 10:51

We desperately need the money! Pragmatism > ideology for our economy.

Yes and as others have said it’s perverse

Labour enjoyed high favourable ratings which probably made them feel they could do whatever but that has gone now. Reeves has realised their mistake on nom dom

It would be great if they could be pragmatic here but I’m doubtful

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