Thread 2: VAT on school Fees- High court challenge

[EHCPerhaps]

Following on from thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5160565-vat-on-school-fees-high-court-challenge

Background to legal challenge (not yet a case):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13824931/amp/Single-mother-autistic-child-launches-High-Court-challenge-Labours-private-schools-VAT-raid-claiming-violates-daughters-right-education.html

Sorry to begin a new thread, OP, but your thread filled up very quickly!

Parents don’t have to accept LA’s acting unlawfully including when they are in breach of the statutory EHCP timescales. They can enforce the law.

With EHCPs, legally, there is a difference between DC who have a school named in section I and those who don’t have the school named in I whose parents, for whatever reason, decide to make their own arrangements. That is the point the pp was making.

you shouldn't have to do that to get the education your child needs

Yes I know that, but I together with the pensioners in my family, and thousands of families like mine, DO have to do it. I have just told you what the alternative is. We are the ‘lucky’ ones.

But there are thousands of children struggling in that system who don't have parents or grandparents to foot the bill, and can't make those choices.

This is not an argument for VAT unless the small amount of money gained by VAT to state schools is ring fenced to SEN kids. It isn’t going to be! My kid returning to state is going to take more from the pathetic inadequate budgets in state as will all the other SEN kids doing that.

My child isn’t a ‘human shield’, FFS. just a child with significant SEN and for what it’s worth, I find your complacency and lack of human feeling for this situation offensive. I have voted Labour all my life, and work in the public sector because I care about public services. There are loads of parents like me.

@EHCPerhaps I know that and I agree with you. I know there are thousands of families like yours and I'm certainly not complacent.

It should never have got to the situation where you needed to do that. I realise that is not helpful.

I'm not suggesting you are using your child, but other people are when they don't care about those still in the state system or how we got here.

Good policy would be based on where a country is so to speak, regarding provision and outcomes, and not on some never never land where "everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds."

That's from "Candide".

Which was intended as satire.

The money isn't reserved, @EHCPerhaps, because you can't spend debt. This policy, if in fact it is actually enacted and not withdrawn, seems very likely to cost money and not to raise it.

The spare school places, such as they are are not in the areas with the un-met SEN need, largely because it's pressure on places that pushes SEN kids out and into the private sector.

I also work in the public sector and if my DC develops EBSA, well, there will be one less teacher with SEN experience.

OK thank you remotecontrolowls but I don’t have time for left wing moral purity any more. Where is the pragmatism? We can all agree the Tories have starved the country including services for SEN support.
But Labour aren’t helping SEN kids in state schools either. They have said and done nothing. They know that adding VAT is going to make support for those exact kids in state school even more stretched, yet they are pressing on. It makes no sense unless they don’t care about SEN kids.

I appreciate that you care and yet you still seem to be supporting school VAT.

Thank you and I appreciate what you’re saying is true. However in a very pressured situation, for parents to enforce their child’s legal right to a suitable school funded by the LA can take a long time and it contains a lot of uncertainty for the family. It can cost an open ended amount for legal advice, I believe right up to barrister level. All the while continuing to have the child out of school for however much longer causing immense stress all round, including risks to the single parent or couple earning their livelihood.

https://antonyantoniou.co.uk/labours-private-school-tax-proposal-likely-to-face-legal-hurdles/

@remotecontrolowls
These articles suggest that there is a legal basis for challenging VAT on private school fees.

https://www.counselmagazine.co.uk/articles/abolishing-private-schools-and-redistributing-their-assets-social-justice-at-the-expense-of-human-rights

I didn’t say it was easy, but it is possible. And my point was legally there is a difference which was the previous poster’s point.

It can cost an open ended amount for legal advice, I believe right up to barrister level.

That is not true. Representation is not required. Parents can appeal themselves. The majority of parents appealing do not have representation. If independent assessments are needed but cannot be afforded and parents are not eligible for legal aid, there are charities such as Parents in Need who can fund assessments.

UK had the lowest life satisfaction amongst teen girls 10-15 in the whole of Europe in the 2022 study. I am not so sure our state schools are fit for purpose across the board and many are failing kids with SEND, in particular. So there is evidence there.

Not having a go EndlessLight Your advice to SEN children’s parents is valued on here.

I’m railing against the failures of UK governments to fund a national education system that I stupidly assumed was there to give all kids their legal right to an education. It isn’t.

It’s overwhelming for parents trying to deal with their children in crisis, and to somehow also continue to work, while also trying to skill up enough from scratch to represent ourselves legally. There’s a whole culture of school and local government inertia and gaslighting us about what our children’s needs are and the solutions that they need.

Parents have to wait years for NHS professional assessments to evidence their children’s needs and to suggest strategies to help, or pay thousands of pounds if they can to get them privately, bringing it down to just months on waiting lists.

All this time and effort. Just for our children to get the same access to a suitable education as a neurotypical child has. While wasting years of vital school time that the SEN child can never get back. In what other arenas of life do parents have to do this? It comes from governments creating resource scarcity and systems not trusting or listening to parents.

Parents in need, the charity do offer a form to take bids asking for help, but their website says they can’t do fundraising events so it’s not a given that parents can get help.
The IPSEA helpline is totally unavailable, I have never seen a booking vacancy. I check for that several times a week.

In theory there are charities to step in where the state doesn’t provide support but in reality they can’t be relied on. I know you are posting in good faith and thank you I do appreciate the signposting.

Are you saying that teen girls in private school have higher life satisfaction?

It doesn't feel relevant to this conversation but

www.openaccessgovernment.org/private-school-education-mental-health-state-school-education-uk-england-educational-achievement/133420/#:~:text=A%20national%20survey%20finds%20that,had%20turned%20out%20so%20far.

If parents can’t afford independent assessments, there are charities who can fund assessments. It is very rare no charity can help with funding where parents genuinely cannot afford reports.

As with everything, you have to persevere with IPSEA both for bookable slots and the call in sessions. 2 tribunal helpline slots are actually available right now. Same for SOSSEN and all the other charities providing support. However, parents still do not need to spend money on representation.

There are other areas where disabled children are failed. Some of which take longer than appealing to SENDIST (and parents can request an expedited hearing where DC are not in full time education) and are just as adversarial (if not more so). It isn’t ‘just’ education. Not that that makes it any better.

@remotecontrolowls - that UCL study was for 13/14 year olds in 2004! This one is for 2022. As private schools have invested heavily in mental health support especially post Covid, the situation may be opposite now. As in, kids in private schools happier.

I don't think this is the thread for discussing private school mental health.

I don't think most parents sending their kids to boarding school are prioritising their mental health.

It's not as clear cut as private schools being the solution to all ills.

but we're not in the EU anymore.
I really wish we were but we're not. So it's irrelevant what EU law is, taking back control and all that.

It’s not irrelevant. Starmer said (pre-election) that he didn’t wait to diverge from EU law. He said “"Most of the conflict with the UK being outside of the UK [sic, arises in so far as the UK wants to diverge and do different things to the rest of our EU partners,"
"Obviously the more we share values, the more we share a future together, the less the conflict. And actually different ways of solving problems become available.”
"Actually we don't want to diverge……”

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-we-dont-want-to-diverge-from-eu-says-sir-keir-starmer-12966338

Introducing tax on education does exactly what he said he wouldn’t do, ie diverge from EU law.

Boarding pupils account for around 12% of private school pupils. The vast majority of private school pupils do not board. This post is about private schools and VAT generally, not just boarders.

I know that, but bringing up poor teenage mental health as an argument feels disingenuous.

I have many friends with teens with mental health issues and they are certainly not confined to the state sector.

If Starmer&Co cannot prove in court that this VAT on private school raises money and is a true tax rather than a deterrent/penalty on some school children, then I do not see how it will pass the HR Act as there is simply no proportionality. There is nothing there to balance out the discrimination and harm to the private sector. If the ISC can prove harm and a high proportion of parents leaving, then Starmer & Co are screwed.

You jump all over the place, It’s not the EU, it’s the ECHR. I’d seriously give some thought to supporting spite policies aimed at children because you think their parents read the wrong paper.

Yes, the legal challenge is to do with the ECHR. The EU point is only relevant in so far as Starmer said he wouldn’t diverge from EU law.

@remotecontrolowls - all possible arguments will be brought up in court surely. For SEND the mental health question is most relevant.

@Mrsbabbecho

There is a reason why education tax is banned under EU articles.

You brought up the EU.

This would be good, but I believe that timing was chosen precisely because of this - not many kids will move during the year or in the middle of critical stage, e.g. GCSE / Alevels and they will have a chance to say that there is no major impact

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2021-0138.html

Moreover, people are not discussing the business rates issue properly either. If Nuffield Health, a luxury expensive gym chain with charitable status recently got out of it, how will they be able to impose it on private schools with charitable status? I just do not understand how, given the legal precedent.

https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

In addition, the irony is that the NUFFIELD FOUNDATION funded the ISC research …. And yet the Nuffield case above - hmm. Massive hypocrisy at stake here?

That was meant the Nuffield Foundation funded the IFS report linked above!