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VAT on school fees - High Court Challenge.

1000 replies

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 04:17

Labour’s plan to impose VAT on private school fees in January faces a High Court legal challenge over claims it breaches human rights law.

Lawyers have written to HM Treasury arguing the policy discriminates against special needs children and has threatened court action if it is not dropped.

Showtime…

OP posts:
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14
CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:07

@EigerTheTiger "What I think is worse is almost blanket bans you’re seeing for routes to universities, job and internships for private school kids."

I'm obviously not doubting your experience-but it does not match that of the young people in my circle. Is it possible that it's a case of equality looking like disadvantage if you're used to privilege?

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 09/09/2024 14:07

DadJoke · 09/09/2024 14:05

The IFS are not against it. They are suggesting education needs more funding.

Lord Winston is a well educated and intelligent man who is a private sector eduction advocate. Private school "help" to fulfil their basic charitable requirements are just crumbs on the table.

Here’s a question for you.

How many state school teachers have Labour promised to recruit with the alleged benefit to the exchequer?

OP posts:
Another76543 · 09/09/2024 14:10

DadJoke · 09/09/2024 14:05

The IFS are not against it. They are suggesting education needs more funding.

Lord Winston is a well educated and intelligent man who is a private sector eduction advocate. Private school "help" to fulfil their basic charitable requirements are just crumbs on the table.

I didn’t say the IFS are against it. I said they have been quoted as saying that it will raise a tiny amount of money and it will make no difference to public services.

Robert Winston works closely with state schools and has highlighted the “huge difference” the outreach schemes are making to the sector. Hardly “crumbs on the table”

TallulahBetty · 09/09/2024 14:11

If you can't afford something with VAT added on, then you couldn't afford it comfortably in the first place.

Another76543 · 09/09/2024 14:11

CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:07

@EigerTheTiger "What I think is worse is almost blanket bans you’re seeing for routes to universities, job and internships for private school kids."

I'm obviously not doubting your experience-but it does not match that of the young people in my circle. Is it possible that it's a case of equality looking like disadvantage if you're used to privilege?

There have been posters on other threads who apparently work in HR who have said that they refuse to recruit privately educated people.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 09/09/2024 14:12

CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:07

@EigerTheTiger "What I think is worse is almost blanket bans you’re seeing for routes to universities, job and internships for private school kids."

I'm obviously not doubting your experience-but it does not match that of the young people in my circle. Is it possible that it's a case of equality looking like disadvantage if you're used to privilege?

You are a master of the ambiguous, of double negatives, of wheels within wheels. You rarely say anything of substance yourself, preferring a rather Putinesque rhetorical question.

You can report me of course, but I dont recall you adding anything to the debate.

OP posts:
Another76543 · 09/09/2024 14:12

TallulahBetty · 09/09/2024 14:11

If you can't afford something with VAT added on, then you couldn't afford it comfortably in the first place.

In that case, add VAT to everything. Holidays, nurseries, care homes, private healthcare etc.

rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou · 09/09/2024 14:12

This is an interesting thread.
Overall I do think that folk who chose private should also expect to pay VAT on those fees, because there is no logical reason they should be subsidised. I also think that some posters have been shameless in using SEN pupils/parents to further their case. Not many of these posters stand up for SEN on actual threads about the challenges for SEN pupils/parents in accessing adequate support (in private or state education).

ItsAShame2 · 09/09/2024 14:13

TallulahBetty · 09/09/2024 14:11

If you can't afford something with VAT added on, then you couldn't afford it comfortably in the first place.

This is a bit stupid - so if your rent or mortgage went up 20% and you found this tricky - this was something you could not afford in the first place? 20% is a huge amount for anything to go up.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 09/09/2024 14:16

TallulahBetty · 09/09/2024 14:11

If you can't afford something with VAT added on, then you couldn't afford it comfortably in the first place.

OK, first prize for the dumbest post on the thread goes to….

OP posts:
ItsAShame2 · 09/09/2024 14:17

rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou · 09/09/2024 14:12

This is an interesting thread.
Overall I do think that folk who chose private should also expect to pay VAT on those fees, because there is no logical reason they should be subsidised. I also think that some posters have been shameless in using SEN pupils/parents to further their case. Not many of these posters stand up for SEN on actual threads about the challenges for SEN pupils/parents in accessing adequate support (in private or state education).

How are private parents being subsidised? Private school parents are subsidising the tax system by not accessing the £7/8k a year the government would have had to allocate to their child if they were in the government school system. And why exactly is the government not putting this money of £7/8k a year saved to government schools?

Your comments about Sen children and parents are disgusting. Let's hope you never need any extra support for special needs in the future.

rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou · 09/09/2024 14:20

ItsAShame2 · 09/09/2024 14:17

How are private parents being subsidised? Private school parents are subsidising the tax system by not accessing the £7/8k a year the government would have had to allocate to their child if they were in the government school system. And why exactly is the government not putting this money of £7/8k a year saved to government schools?

Your comments about Sen children and parents are disgusting. Let's hope you never need any extra support for special needs in the future.

They have been subsidised for all of the time they haven't paid any tax on school fees. That's fairly obvious.
I think you may have read my comments about SEN pupils wrongly - I am not saying that SEN parents are doing anything wrong, my issue is with non-SEN parents using SEN parents/pupils to further the 'we can't possibly pay VAT' cause. Perhaps actually read words before you comment.

perfectstorm · 09/09/2024 14:22

It wouldn't be one appeal. You need to appeal to make them assess. Then you need to appeal to make them issue. Then you need to appeal against the chocolate teapot they did in fact issue.

I've had chemo. And I honestly assure you that I would rather go through another year of chemo than a single appeal; they are that stressful. Yet here I am, in my fourth. In six years. And that's not even rare. The lawbreaking by the very people paid to support these kids is on an industrial scale. It is institutionalised and the norm.

They do not tend to give in in Kent on refusals to issue. Do you even know what the criteria is for that - it's not low! And parents can be mislead on it into focusing on the mental health elements - you can't get an EHCP unless there is sufficient in section F, the learning section. But most parents don't know, which is why they can lose at that point even when the entitlement is there without help and advice.

Kent don't even always give in on refusals to assess, and the criteria there is on the floor! I'm presently supporting a parent whose child's attainment is 2 years behind expected levels and where Kent are paying almost £3000 a year to the school from High Needs Block, on top of the school's own £6000, and they are still refusing to assess this child. They will then try to refuse to issue (good luck with that, Kent, with a provision map showing almost £9k spend and no progress, when the threshold for necessary SEP for an EHCP is £6k) and then when they lose that they will issue a chocolate teapot, which we will have to appeal a third time to get an EHCP anyone can actually enforce. Because the mum knows me, I have got an earlier refusal to assess (due to phase transfer) and on the papers, so it's taken 4 months instead of 13. We'll then hold them to the statutory timeline to assess, instead of their current more than a year, via the PAP letter from SOS!SEN, and we will also secure independent reports from brilliant kind people willing to do it at minimal rates because they are diamonds, which the family will fund using the magic DLA money tree. That will be another 3 months. We will then use the expedited route again, as the child is in a phase transfer, to ensure the next appeal takes 4 months (again on the papers only, no hearing, because it's SO bloody obvious what the answer should be) and then after that we will have to do a full hearing, and hope and pray we can get that in by next summer, ready for secondary transfer somewhere that won't break her - and if we don't, break her secondary placement will. We will work like hell and try every possible legal means in order to get this terrifyingly vulnerable child an EHCP within 18 months that's fit for purpose, and that there is any chance at all is solely because I myself have had such brilliantly skilled and dedicated legal help that I know the system. And that massively speeded up timeline may, MAY, mean a little girl in this plight gets an EHCP worth having 15 months after her mum lodged the application. If she didn't pull all those levers, even with appeals it would be 4 years.

The mum who is taking the JR had no chance at all of getting this sorted for her child inside the time she had available, and even outside that time frame, no chance without a lot of expensive reports and legal help unless and until she'd sent her child in, watched them be destroyed, and then gone, "okay, she's now got a smorgasbord of diagnosed mental health issues, can I have an EHCP?" I mean, they'd still have said no, but it would have been an easier win at Tribunal.

There is a huge, huge SEN crisis. SEN was where the NHS is now ten years ago. Imagine where the NHS will be in ten years, if there is a sudden determination to cut budgets at all costs? That's what has happened.

What people don't grasp is that without expensive reports - and a single really good medico-legal report is often in the thousands - you can only win decent provision IF YOUR CHILD IS ALREADY HARMED. So many have to home educate because they can't afford reports, and can't afford private, but can't send kids in to state secondaries that will break them, either.

So much hysteria about VAT on school fees, and almost no interest at all in what is happening to the families and children at the sharp end of all of this. 42% of SEN parents consider suicide. 92% of neurodivergent kids suffer extreme school distress, as opposed to 6% in the general population. The studies - robust, peer reviewed - are there. Why do you all care so much about making life harder for some privileged people (when by definition the most privileged of that cohort will barely notice) and not care at all about the SEN crisis? One in ten kids are neurodivergent. 15% of the school age kids are disabled in some way. That's twice those in private schools! Where are the threads on that on Mumsnet, lasting days and attracting such fierce interest?

EHCPs take years, they take extraordinary levels of dedication, and then the LAs largely ignore them, anyway. Take a look at the LGO decisions if you don't believe me. Imagine if YOU had to engage in constant litigation, just to ensure your kids had the education to which they were always entitled in the first place, and then you see people wangsting on endlessly about something that when it boils down to it, just means "I resent people being able to buy their kids privilege." That's human. I get it. But how about a little recognition on your own privilege, if you don't have to fight to try to get your kids any education at all?

Parents opting out of the battle to secure an EHCP and begging or borrowing to fund private fees via family contributions or loans or remortage are sane, not privileged. Nobody has the right to declare themselves progressive and concerned about social justice and the vulnerable when they do not give a crap about the most vulnerable group of all.

If you don't care because you aren't affected, I get that. I do. The world is full of awful things and we all have to pick our focus. But for the love of God, stop posting lies about how parents can get an EHCP, or that they get EHCPs if they are needed, or that EHCPs are simple to even frigging enforce - I know a family told by their LA that it doesn't matter what the Tribunal decide because the LA won't do it anyway. Literally saying they will commit contempt of court, because the only remedy is Judicial Review, and there's no punishment or compensation so the LAs still gain even if the parent does that (and most don't, and give up). I have personally had to start JR proceedings because the LA chose to ignore our child's EHCP and just offered some maths and English and I am not alone.

I don't expect everyone to care. I do expect people not to invent a functional system that does not exist, and then demand that people rely on that fantasy.

perfectstorm · 09/09/2024 14:24

Apologies, that was in reply to an earlier comment blithely saying Kent usually overturn refusal to issue EHCP appeals when challenged.

I pressed "post" after getting back from some hospital appointments for my kids, having typed this am. Should have pressed preview, first!

ItsAShame2 · 09/09/2024 14:28

rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou · 09/09/2024 14:20

They have been subsidised for all of the time they haven't paid any tax on school fees. That's fairly obvious.
I think you may have read my comments about SEN pupils wrongly - I am not saying that SEN parents are doing anything wrong, my issue is with non-SEN parents using SEN parents/pupils to further the 'we can't possibly pay VAT' cause. Perhaps actually read words before you comment.

I did read your words - and if you are really cross checking posters names with SEN threads to see who is posting what - than you really have too much time on your hands.

ThinkingForward · 09/09/2024 14:28

@perfectstorm

They have been doing this for decades. The other trick is to grant the funding then syphon it off to kids to "deserving other" or the school uses it to top up the general school budget as they dilute the number of TAs.

SurroundSoundLol · 09/09/2024 14:31

@perfectstorm each time I read your comments my heart breaks a little. What excruciating hoops to jump through.

rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou · 09/09/2024 14:39

ItsAShame2 · 09/09/2024 14:28

I did read your words - and if you are really cross checking posters names with SEN threads to see who is posting what - than you really have too much time on your hands.

Another insult because you misread my comment.

EigerTheTiger · 09/09/2024 14:42

CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:07

@EigerTheTiger "What I think is worse is almost blanket bans you’re seeing for routes to universities, job and internships for private school kids."

I'm obviously not doubting your experience-but it does not match that of the young people in my circle. Is it possible that it's a case of equality looking like disadvantage if you're used to privilege?

I’ll counter your rhetorical question with another.

Is it possible that it’s a case of prejudice being dressed up to look like equality if you’re used to equality but think you’re disadvantaged because of your prejudice?

Note I’m not talking here about people who are disadvantaged, since most of the policies that are put in place are unlikely to benefit these groups and are more likely to benefit people who’ve never really been disadvantaged but perhaps just didn’t go to private school. Like… you know, grammar school kids?

CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:43

@EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime I wouldn't dream of reporting you-you're perfectly free to post whatever you want. I do suggest, however, that you just ignore my posts if they wind you up so much. There are plenty of posters on here who are happily sharing your bubble.

EndlessLight · 09/09/2024 14:45

@perfectstorm If the parent in Kent you are supporting will struggle to fund independent assessments, Parents in Need may be able to help.

CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:51

@EigerTheTiger "Is it possible that it’s a case of prejudice being dressed up to look like equality if you’re used to equality but think you’re disadvantaged?"

Yes, of course it's possible. But it is undeniable that for a long time private school kids were disproportionately represented at Oxbridge and other "top" universities. And were (in general) more likely to be able to afford to take unpaid internships.They still are-but the balance is definitely tipping. A good thing, IMHO, considering the tiny % of kids who go to private school.

EigerTheTiger · 09/09/2024 14:56

CurlewKate · 09/09/2024 14:51

@EigerTheTiger "Is it possible that it’s a case of prejudice being dressed up to look like equality if you’re used to equality but think you’re disadvantaged?"

Yes, of course it's possible. But it is undeniable that for a long time private school kids were disproportionately represented at Oxbridge and other "top" universities. And were (in general) more likely to be able to afford to take unpaid internships.They still are-but the balance is definitely tipping. A good thing, IMHO, considering the tiny % of kids who go to private school.

Two questions for you:

  1. What proportion of RG university students come from private schools?
  2. What proportion of A level students go to private schools (given that you need A levels to go to university).
Marchesman · 09/09/2024 15:03

@EigerTheTiger
"The idea that they want private school parents to pay more tax AND block kids from accessing what should be a meritocratic system just shows it’s all about envy and division."

In some cases this is demonstrably true. If you aren't familiar with it already, you might want to look at: Analysis of student characteristics and attainment outcomes. Ekaterina Samoylova and Laura Hall, Academic and Financial Planning and Analysis, Cambridge University, April 2020.

The tables on pages 10 and 11 give the results of their multivariate analysis, which show that they are clearly not running a meritocratic admissions system. In their conclusions you will find no discussion at all of the effect of school type on results.

The net effect of setting a higher bar for entry for pupils from (British) private schools is that they are more than 40% more likely to achieve firsts than students who went to state schools.

Araminta1003 · 09/09/2024 15:04

There are a lot of people who were educated in state schools in the 90s who ended up at Oxbridge as a minority who have a massive chip on their shoulder to this day. It is even worse where they have gone into jobs where they did not make a lot of money whilst their then uni peers did. A lot of them are in the civil service etc
Things have massively moved on since then but it appears they are still experiencing some personal traumas.

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