Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

VAT on school fees - High Court Challenge.

1000 replies

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 04:17

Labour’s plan to impose VAT on private school fees in January faces a High Court legal challenge over claims it breaches human rights law.

Lawyers have written to HM Treasury arguing the policy discriminates against special needs children and has threatened court action if it is not dropped.

Showtime…

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:11

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 17:04

By saying what about DC attending performing arts schools, your post compared sending DC to a performing arts school to those with SEN. They aren’t the same and arguments for or against VAT for the former should not be thought about in the same way as it is for the latter.

Many children who would perhaps fall under a SEN definition use the private system without an EHCP or SEN plan in place because their chosen school works for them.

Yes, they do. I didn’t say otherwise. What I actually comment on was ”Many children without SEN are at private school for various reasons which boil down to the state system not being adequate to provide for their needs. Children with mental health problems for example who can only cope with smaller classes.” because DC in your second sentence do have SEN yet you use it as an example of DC without SEN attending independent schools.

I was absolutely not saying that the two are the same. They are obviously not. It’s vastly different. My point is that children are at private school for a variety of reasons where the state cannot provide for them. Personally I don’t think education of any child should be taxed.

Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:14

Jorvik1 · 08/09/2024 17:04

Don't be so juvenile.

I want an equal society with excellent education from pre school to primary to secondary. It's the right of all children in the UK not just those of us who can afford to pay.

Don't you agree, OP?

Every child should have access to an excellent state school which provides for their individual needs. They don’t. State education is a postcode lottery. Some can access excellent state schools. Too many have to struggle through failing schools. Where is the uproar about the inequality in the state system? Disrupting the education of 6% of the privately educated isn’t going to help the inequalities in the schools serving the other 94%.

perfectstorm · 08/09/2024 17:19

IncessantNameChanger · 08/09/2024 17:01

How do I, as a strong advocate for better state SEN provision take class action to do so? I have seen others try and get no where. Where's the collective uproar? Nowhere... that's where. Its just us SEN parents. The 1 or 2 in a class of 30. The other 28 don't care as they are fine. Don't kid yourself. Most people font give a F.

You can do a judicial review at zero cost in your child's name. But a law needs to be broken
State schools being a bit shit is not illegal.

The essential Pre-action Protocol letter prior to any Judicial Review can't be done in the name of the child either; parents have to pay for that themselves. SOS!SEN are presently doing free ones for simple matters, but their own waiting list is long - and cheap PAP letters from solicitors are £1000. We've spent twice that in the past, with backs against the wall and before the SOS!SEN option. Just to access the courts, to stop our LA breaking the law.

You also can't do a JR if there is "a suitable alternative remedy". They flat out won't touch it. This means the LA can funnel you towards either a Tribunal (which takes a long time to reach, and then the LA ignore the legal 5 weeks to comply and take months - and there are no costs payable for Tribunals, so if parents need expert reports, or legal help, that's lost money) or the LGO, which takes even longer and has a slap-on-the-wrist approach and what they also say is "gestural" compensation... and they can't touch anything for which you can use a Tribunal, or anything relating to the ICO.

More than 90% of parents win at LGO level, and 98.3% at Tribunal, but by "win" we mean "re-make the decision as it should have been made in the first place, if the LA adhered to the law." That's not winning. That's trying to limit the loss.

The ICO, the Information Commissioners Office, handles refusals by the state to comply with the Subject Access Request - the demand that the LA give you all your info - and they slap them on the wrist and say "naughty, naughty" and still don't make them give you everything. Hilariously, the main reason I got a lot from ours is they didn't bother to read the documents properly. The downside of this was that they left random other kids's names unredacted. The good side was all manner of dirt embedded in documents, and even a document the cover letter said did not exist at all. But it took six months to get even that partial disclosure - and the timescale in law is a month.

The scandal of what is going on - just in our own case, they admit to lying to parents in internal emails with blithe confidence, when what they are admitting to lying about is breaking the law - should be Post Office level.

42% of SEN parents think about suicide, and the main reason isn't the support of their child: it's the stress and distress of dealing with the very services paid to support them.

There's research on school trauma and distress, and the vast majority affected are neurodivergent kids.

In 94.3% of cases, school attendance problems were underpinned by significant emotional distress, with often harrowing accounts of this distress provided by parents. While the mean age of the CYP in this sample was 11.6 years (StDev 3.1 years), their School Distress was evident to parents from a much younger age (7.9 years). Notably, 92.1% of CYP currently experiencing School Distress were described as neurodivergent (ND) and 83.4% as autistic.

Mental health difficulties in the absence of a neurodivergent profile were, however, relatively rare (6.17%). Concerningly, despite the striking levels of emotional distress and disability reported by parents, parents also reported a dearth of meaningful support for their CYP at school.

And people think removing autistic kids from state mainstreams is a choice.

Frontiers | School distress and the school attendance crisis: a story dominated by neurodivergence and unmet need

BackgroundThe Covid-19 pandemic has brought into sharp focus a school attendance crisis in many countries, although this likely pre-dates the pandemic. Child...

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1237052/full

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 17:22

Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:14

Every child should have access to an excellent state school which provides for their individual needs. They don’t. State education is a postcode lottery. Some can access excellent state schools. Too many have to struggle through failing schools. Where is the uproar about the inequality in the state system? Disrupting the education of 6% of the privately educated isn’t going to help the inequalities in the schools serving the other 94%.

Jorvik? Are you there?

Despite some of the very moving posts today, you still wish to ban private and grammar schools?

Don’t disappear again.

OP posts:
Barbadossunset · 08/09/2024 17:23

Privileged, my arse. Privilege is being able to send your child into mainstream state school, without having them talk about killing themselves from Reception onwards at home, while pretending to be Mr Everything Is Awesome in school.

PerfectStorm, I am sorry you and your dc are going through this.
However I guess most Labour MPs feel the same as many posters on mn, viz. private school students are all arrogant, entitled, over-privileged etc etc. By adding VAT some money might be raised, but also, even better, some of these over-privileged little shits will have to leave their little bubble and go to state school. That’ll show ‘em!
(Of course if enough of these poshos leave then the schools will close and then there won’t be any school fees so no VAT either).

Bumpitybumper · 08/09/2024 17:23

Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:11

I was absolutely not saying that the two are the same. They are obviously not. It’s vastly different. My point is that children are at private school for a variety of reasons where the state cannot provide for them. Personally I don’t think education of any child should be taxed.

Exactly this.

Whilst SEN might be the most obvious example, there are plenty of occasions where the available state provision can't meet the needs of the children. This may be because the local school is inadequate generally or has specific weaknesses that impact children differently. For example, a child with some autistic traits (not diagnosed with autism and therefore not specifically SEN) may struggle with large classes if they are overstimulated by noise. Even the case of the gifted and talented performing arts student is relevant if the local school cannot meet the needs of that child. Why on earth would be making it harder for parents to pay for private provision to help meet this need? Surely we want as many children to reach their potential as possible?

The problem of course is that not everyone can afford the private provision but surely this means we should be making it as accessible as possible rather than making it even more unaffordable?

The financial arguments don't add up for this policy so it seems it's more ideological. The ideology of equality. The problem is the state system is inherently unequal and nothing is being done to address this. Pumping more money into the system won't solve this. Meanwhile we just ensure more kids go without their needs being met. Shame on Labour!

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 17:26

For example, a child with some autistic traits (not diagnosed with autism and therefore not specifically SEN) may struggle with large classes if they are overstimulated by noise.

@Bumpitybumper DC don’t need a diagnosis to meet the legal definition of SEN. The example you give would be classed as having SEN. A diagnosis isn’t required for an EHCP or DLA either.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 17:32

Werweisswohin · 08/09/2024 17:07

OPs short for 'I am not able to answer'.

Now who’s not answering?

Where’s your mate gone?

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 17:38

@Barbadossunset "However I guess most Labour MPs feel the same as many posters on mn, viz. private school students are all arrogant, entitled, over-privileged etc etc."

I'm pretty sure they don't.You have to be unimaginative, ignorant and unobservant to think that. Which, whatever else, Labour MPs tend not to be.

Barbadossunset · 08/09/2024 17:40

I'm pretty sure they don't.You have to be unimaginative, ignorant and unobservant to think that. Which, whatever else, Labour MPs tend not to be.

CurlewKate do you think that of the posters who describe privately educated children thus?

Chattyon · 08/09/2024 17:40

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 04:17

Labour’s plan to impose VAT on private school fees in January faces a High Court legal challenge over claims it breaches human rights law.

Lawyers have written to HM Treasury arguing the policy discriminates against special needs children and has threatened court action if it is not dropped.

Showtime…

It's only a test case by one parent whose child attends private special school and who failed to get a ECHP approved. It's not a wide open applies to all case. I wouldn't get too excited about it's chance of getting anywhere.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 17:42

Chattyon · 08/09/2024 17:40

It's only a test case by one parent whose child attends private special school and who failed to get a ECHP approved. It's not a wide open applies to all case. I wouldn't get too excited about it's chance of getting anywhere.

Thanks, but I will stay optimistic - if that’s ok with you.

OP posts:
gotmychristmasmiracle · 08/09/2024 17:42

Why do people want labour to ban private education?

Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:44

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 17:26

For example, a child with some autistic traits (not diagnosed with autism and therefore not specifically SEN) may struggle with large classes if they are overstimulated by noise.

@Bumpitybumper DC don’t need a diagnosis to meet the legal definition of SEN. The example you give would be classed as having SEN. A diagnosis isn’t required for an EHCP or DLA either.

Assuming then that the government changes their policy so that any SEN child is exempt from paying VAT, how would that be implemented? Would individual schools or private child psychologists be able to decide who meets the SEN threshold? There are lots of children in private schools who don’t have SEN plans but who could possibly fall under the definition. If this legal challenge is successful, I can see it leading to even more complications.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 17:44

gotmychristmasmiracle · 08/09/2024 17:42

Why do people want labour to ban private education?

Jorvik? Werweiss…?

Please advise.

OP posts:
Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:45

Chattyon · 08/09/2024 17:40

It's only a test case by one parent whose child attends private special school and who failed to get a ECHP approved. It's not a wide open applies to all case. I wouldn't get too excited about it's chance of getting anywhere.

There are other legal challenges in the pipeline (eg on the grounds of faith/military families).

CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 17:47

@Barbadossunset "
CurlewKate do you think that of the posters who describe privately educated children thus?"

Yes. Fortunately there are very few of them. Despite the efforts of some to convince us otherwise.

ItsAShame2 · 08/09/2024 17:47

Sunnysundayicecream · 08/09/2024 15:33

I have worked as a primary teacher for 20 years and have worked with children with sever disabilities and their families within that time. These families want the absolute best for their child and we have worked with them the best we can, but inclusion has not been funded properly by most LAs. Most of these families could not afford private school, no matter how much they scrimp and save, so this is not an option for them.

I think if the VAT was used from private schools to help fund inclusion within state schools that would be apositive step.

The government should be saying that the £7k a year they save from private school parents not accessing their free government school system should be spent on the public schools - this would be much more than what the government would earn from the vat.
If you are a teacher - where is your moral compass? Why are only a small percentage of parents responsible for paying tax towards the improvement of schools? Why do you think you can say there is a problem but not offer to pay to have it fixed? The education system is the responsibility of all tax paying adults and not just a few.

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 17:48

Another76543 · 08/09/2024 17:44

Assuming then that the government changes their policy so that any SEN child is exempt from paying VAT, how would that be implemented? Would individual schools or private child psychologists be able to decide who meets the SEN threshold? There are lots of children in private schools who don’t have SEN plans but who could possibly fall under the definition. If this legal challenge is successful, I can see it leading to even more complications.

I have no idea how it would work if it was tied to meeting the legal definition of SEN. It could leave the system in even more chaos. @perfectstorm’s suggestion of it being tied to DLA could work. Although that wouldn’t be without issue either. Tribunals for those incorrectly refused DLA are nearly as long as SENDIST appeals in some areas.

DC don’t need to have a SEN plan to meet the legal definition of having SEN.

TealTraybake · 08/09/2024 17:52

@ItsAShame2
‘Why are only a small percentage of parents responsible for paying tax towards the improvement of schools? Why do you think you can say there is a problem but not offer to pay to have it fixed? The education system is the responsibility of all tax paying adults and not just a few’

Exactly. This is conveniently forgotten by the ‘Yey make those rich people pay vat on school fees that’ll show em’ people.

Janedoe82 · 08/09/2024 17:52

SoupDragon · 08/09/2024 13:42

So you're a hypocrite.

who apparently didn't want her DC mixing with the riffraff.

How exactly am I a hypocrite? I am not at any point saying people shouldn’t send their children to private schools! Just that if they do at least be honest that it is a luxury!! And expect to pay for it as such.
With regards to why people send their kids- again let’s have an honest conversation about why they choose it over state- for many it is to get away from the distractions to learning in state school classrooms. If teachers time is being spent dealing with kids acting out (admittedly often due to trauma) it distracts from teaching.

Jorvik1 · 08/09/2024 17:54

Please bring yourself up to speed and then feel free to rejoin - in a constructive manner.

I was replying to your juvenile remark that you made earlier today. As it was directed at me, the etiquette is that I respond when I'm able to.

Bumpitybumper · 08/09/2024 17:55

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 17:26

For example, a child with some autistic traits (not diagnosed with autism and therefore not specifically SEN) may struggle with large classes if they are overstimulated by noise.

@Bumpitybumper DC don’t need a diagnosis to meet the legal definition of SEN. The example you give would be classed as having SEN. A diagnosis isn’t required for an EHCP or DLA either.

A diagnosis isn't technically required but it's certainly helpful when applying for DLA etc. I don't know why you are pretending that thresholds don't exist and that not everyone with a specific need in an area is going to be recognised as having SEN. If this is the case then virtually everyone could claim they fall within this category as most kids have specific difficulties and challenges.

gotmychristmasmiracle · 08/09/2024 17:56

I think the whole state/private school thing needs a total overhaul in the uk. Whereby everyone gets £10k per child per year to send to the school of their choice and if it's private, then top it up. Australia currently use this system and it works well. Seems like a more inclusive option, especially if scholarships can be available. Might send more kids to private schools and take pressure of government financially.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 17:58

Jorvik1 · 08/09/2024 17:54

Please bring yourself up to speed and then feel free to rejoin - in a constructive manner.

I was replying to your juvenile remark that you made earlier today. As it was directed at me, the etiquette is that I respond when I'm able to.

Noted, thanks.

Now then - your comment that you want Labour to ban all private and grammar schools (your words).

Please explain why.

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.