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VAT on school fees - High Court Challenge.

1000 replies

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 08/09/2024 04:17

Labour’s plan to impose VAT on private school fees in January faces a High Court legal challenge over claims it breaches human rights law.

Lawyers have written to HM Treasury arguing the policy discriminates against special needs children and has threatened court action if it is not dropped.

Showtime…

OP posts:
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14
Werweisswohin · 08/09/2024 15:11

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 15:07

I have read what you wrote. You posted “it's still not unreasonable that some of it might go towards education.” It is unreasonable.

What I wrote is far from unreasonable.
Let's stop hijacking the thread and just have our different views.

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 15:13

Werweisswohin · 08/09/2024 15:11

What I wrote is far from unreasonable.
Let's stop hijacking the thread and just have our different views.

What you wrote is very unreasonable.

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:14

Legal uncertainty may put some private schools in the worst possible position if they don’t know what they will be able to reclaim and what they have to charge parents?
Accounts will have to be segregated somehow to protect parents from
insolvency risk. The Government should guarantee those accounts given they caused this mess.
Remenber some people have increased mortgages/taken out loans already. What a mess!
During Brexit what cost us the most is the uncertainty for years and years. It cost us billions and billions.

Werweisswohin · 08/09/2024 15:16

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 15:13

What you wrote is very unreasonable.

In your opinion.
As I said, let's leave it there.

CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 15:16

@Araminta1003 From what I read on his thread, Dan Neidle is speaking about the actual law-I am not sure how his personal political views are relevant.

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:18

@CurlewKate - they are relevant because he is providing general legal advice that in reality nobody can sue him for or rely on because they did not pay him for such advice. And he is a disclosed Labour Party member and indirectly using the brand of his former law firm. It’s far from clear cut.

qwertyasdfgzxcv · 08/09/2024 15:19

MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 08/09/2024 07:57

You don't have a 'human right' to VAT exemption on luxury products 😳

I've heard it all now.

Education isn't a luxury. I don't believe going to buy a pack of paracetamol is a luxury either yet for some stupid reason I have to pay VAT on that despite the same product being VAT free exempt if I were to get on prescription.

EndlessLight · 08/09/2024 15:19

Werweisswohin · 08/09/2024 15:16

In your opinion.
As I said, let's leave it there.

No-one is forcing you to reply. Someone who thinks it is reasonable doesn’t understand the additional costs associated with having a disabled child.

On average, DLA does not cover the extra costs associated with having a disabled child. An extra £975 on top of DLA is needed for the same standard of living. It is unreasonable to expect DLA to be used to fund independent school fees on top of the existing costs.

It is unreasonable to expect parents to stop or reduce using DLA to fund things extra water, extra gas, extra electric, higher food costs, more fuel than typical for the car/additional taxis/more public transport costs/extra parking costs, the equipment not otherwise funded… If it was expected that DLA is used towards school fees there would be an even greater discrepancy than the £975 currently needed on top of DLA. Where do you propose parents get the extra money from? It would see even more disabled households in poverty.

qwertyasdfgzxcv · 08/09/2024 15:21

PurBal · 08/09/2024 08:12

Education aside. In our area the local private schools employ between 400 and 2000 people each. They are some of if not the biggest employers in the towns. Will absolutely destroy the area if even one closes, jobs are already at risk with VAT. And I'm not talking about teaching staff, it's the cleaners and catering staff that will be the first to go. Boarding already in decline and VAT will be applicable to board and lodging (apparently school food is a luxury) so that's all the boarding staff: matrons, houseparents, nurses etc.

It's also silly because the UK isn't a big technical or centre of manufacture but it has a lot of GDP has come from education. Now, our universities are in trouble and private schools (which have many foreign students) are being attacked. If I was a rich Chinese parent I would probably send my kids to the states for an education.

Sunshineonarainyday80 · 08/09/2024 15:22

Just as a side issue - not being paid for legal advice doesn't mean someone isn't entitled to rely on it!

ItsAShame2 · 08/09/2024 15:22

Having a university education is a privilege - its statistically proven to improve increase your income levels. Then why is uni education not treated as a luxury? Why is it not subject to vat?

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:26

@Sunshineonarainyday80 - do you mean a pro bono situation?

Are you claiming people can rely on Neidle’s tax advice and vague legal opinions?!

Why does any QCs opinions have pages and pages of caveats then?!

Sunshineonarainyday80 · 08/09/2024 15:28

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:26

@Sunshineonarainyday80 - do you mean a pro bono situation?

Are you claiming people can rely on Neidle’s tax advice and vague legal opinions?!

Why does any QCs opinions have pages and pages of caveats then?!

No I haven't even listened to Neidle. I meant as a general point - I'm a solicitor who solely defends other solicitors against negligence claims.

qwertyasdfgzxcv · 08/09/2024 15:30

And if school food in private schools has VAT added (same for full boarding fees) then surely school meals in state schools should have VAT added and also residential s....

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:32

Well @Sunshineonarainyday80 - go look at the website and twitter/X threads. The man in question probably has very deep pockets and I would assume is astute enough to make sure nobody can sue him either way for his generally professed advice. However, perhaps I should have learnt by now that assumptions are just that.

Sunnysundayicecream · 08/09/2024 15:33

I have worked as a primary teacher for 20 years and have worked with children with sever disabilities and their families within that time. These families want the absolute best for their child and we have worked with them the best we can, but inclusion has not been funded properly by most LAs. Most of these families could not afford private school, no matter how much they scrimp and save, so this is not an option for them.

I think if the VAT was used from private schools to help fund inclusion within state schools that would be apositive step.

StaunchMomma · 08/09/2024 15:36

nearlylovemyusername · 08/09/2024 12:45

so what? let's take this option away from those who could?

Nobody's taking the option away - you've just got to pay a bit more.

Pogpog21 · 08/09/2024 15:36

ItsAShame2 · 08/09/2024 14:49

People who can access private health insurance are privileged but there is not a tax for this because that would mean more burden on the nhs.

I’m sure Labour will be taxing this soon.

Sunshineonarainyday80 · 08/09/2024 15:43

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:32

Well @Sunshineonarainyday80 - go look at the website and twitter/X threads. The man in question probably has very deep pockets and I would assume is astute enough to make sure nobody can sue him either way for his generally professed advice. However, perhaps I should have learnt by now that assumptions are just that.

I had a quick Google - yes his generic view (bet his colleagues with kids at private school are hoping he's wrong - as am I).

qwertyasdfgzxcv · 08/09/2024 15:44

Here's an idea. If private schooling is a luxury and so much better, why doesn't state school become means tested and all parents are expected to contribute.

Currently seeing GP is free on the NHS, but if you book a private GP you don't pay VAT. Why is private healthcare not subject to VAT yet education will be?

CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 15:44

@Araminta1003 Neidle is not providing legal advice. He is offering comment and analysis on a particular case. He was for a number of years a top tax lawyer- I assume he is savvy enough not to expose himself to litigation.

In any case, I was just offering his thread as something that people on this thread might find interesting. You can take it or leave it!

CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 15:51

A thing, however, that leaped out at me from Neidles's thread is that it is the LEAs that need to be sued if they are not providing adequate SEN provision- which would be a better use of pro bono legal than what he seems to think is a fruitless pursuit of the government.

perfectstorm · 08/09/2024 15:54

Werweisswohin · 08/09/2024 14:47

Oh for heavens sake, read the actual words.

The problem you have is that people can.

Look, posting foolishly happens to us all. Nobody knows everything about a subject - why would the finances of families with significantly disabled children be known to you? That's fine.

But when you've made a bit of an accidental idiot of yourself, the graceful thing to do is back down, acknowledge it, and behave with a little grace. Instead, you've sneered at, belittled, and attempted to gaslight parents of disabled children on the financial hit that takes. All on a thread where you profess tender concern for the underprivileged.

You can choose to behave with some dignity, back down and apologise and admit you made an error, as we all do at times... or you can just keep doubling down on denying what we can all read with our own eyes.

Your call.

Araminta1003 · 08/09/2024 15:59

@CurlewKate - I don’t understand. People are already suing LEAs left right and centre if they can afford to do so and they are only in this position, because of gross underfunding by Central Government. So you mean judicial review of how the education budget is set in the first place so they have enough funds to meet the needs of SEN kids? There are massive access issues here. I think the case this lady is bringing is really important.

perfectstorm · 08/09/2024 16:02

Sunnysundayicecream · 08/09/2024 15:33

I have worked as a primary teacher for 20 years and have worked with children with sever disabilities and their families within that time. These families want the absolute best for their child and we have worked with them the best we can, but inclusion has not been funded properly by most LAs. Most of these families could not afford private school, no matter how much they scrimp and save, so this is not an option for them.

I think if the VAT was used from private schools to help fund inclusion within state schools that would be apositive step.

Mainstreams don't work for many, perhaps most, autistic kids. That's why 75% have diagnosed mental illnesses by the end of secondary.

Bluntly, primary schools are a huge part of the problem. If an autistic kid is able and masks, they're not seen as having "severe" disabilities. The severity is calibrated on how their disability impacts those around them, and not them.

When my son last went into CAMHS, the triage nurse saw he had PTDS on his diagnostic chart and said, "School?" I said yes, and she just nodded matter of factly.

An autistic kid in CAMHS is seen with PTSD and nobody thinks: was this a car crash? Abuse? Domestic violence? Bereavement? No, their minds instantly go to school trauma.

We removed my son at the start of Year 3. And the trauma is still there. Kids removed in KS3 are generally in an even worse state. I can't tell you the stories I hear, week in, week out. It's heartbreaking - and then I read threads like this, where people think if we shoved these square pegs into round holes with better hammers, the damage might be less.

We don't need more autistic kids in mainstreams. We need mainstreams designed to work for autistic kids, instead. Massively cheaper than state specialists or private schools, to make them smaller overall, quieter, curricula tweaked, all staff trained to understand it, smaller classes. It could be done for baseline fees and notional SEN budget, and it would save a fortune, long term. No more expensive independent specialists at more than £100,000 a year plus taxis. And far, far less trauma being picked up by CAMHS and EHCP budgets, too.

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